The Big Impression

The food-delivery company’s VP of brand discusses the business’ 20-year history and how it stays front of mind for consumers.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: I'm Damian Fowler

Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. 

Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Marnie Kain, the VP of Brand and Creative at Grubhub.

Damian: Grubhub recently celebrated its 20th anniversary. It was founded in Chicago in 2004, and it was the pioneer food delivery service. A forerunner to the booming e commerce delivery sector.

Ilyse: Two decades on, the business has scaled. It now has a 375, 000 restaurant partners in over 4, 000 U.S. cities.

Damian: Marnie joined the company in September 2023, just as it was planning its big birthday celebrations.

Ilyse: So Marnie, can you tell us about the challenge of marketing this brand, having joined just Grubhub in 2023?

Marnie: Well it was a very easy decision to make to go to Grubhub. I had spent a number of decades on the [00:01:00] agency side, working with clients across many different categories. And one thing I learned is that it's really fun to work in a category that you enjoy. And who doesn't love food and the delight and joy of delivery that it brings?

So I was able to really unmask my experience across many sectors like CPG, mass retail, QSR, casual dining, health and wellness. travel and so on and really bring that expertise and experience to the table to solve some really interesting challenges in a very crowded landscape.

Ilyse: Now, it is interesting with your background because, like you said, you've been across agencies for a long time. What would you say is the differentiating factor being brand side now?

Marnie: Well, being brand side you definitely have greater visibility to the complexities of the business. I think you [00:02:00] believe you understand that when you're on the agency side, but what you have visibility to is far less than what really goes on. And it is challenging to sell things in across the organization because there are many stakeholders, cross functional decision making and priorities that aren't necessarily brand marketing.

Ilyse: Now let's talk about Grubhub's marketing strategy a little. So the delivery service sector has become quite competitive as you know. As all consumers know, we have lots of choices. How do you think about differentiating Grubhub in this space and maintaining that market share

Marnie: We really look at it from a consumer standpoint and what's meaningful and relevant to our customers. What conveniences do they need? What are their pain points? What categories do they need delivery from? So we're [00:03:00] expanding even beyond restaurants into categories like grocery, convenience, and others that will soon come. So it's really about being in service of the customer and their needs.

As far as what is differentiating about us, it's really about tapping into and building upon what they see as valuable. So one of the biggest ways that we're offering value, outside of just everyday value that are always available on the app, are through partnerships like the one we have with Amazon.

Ilyse: Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the partnership. Andhow Grubhub really works with brands and what platforms it chooses when it comes to those types of partnerships.

Marnie: Well, Amazon is a great example of really understanding what's important to consumers. Obviously, Amazon delivers pretty much everything, but what they [00:04:00] don't deliver is food from restaurants. And so the synergy between the two delivery giants is quite clear. The opportunity was to really bring added value to Amazon Prime customers, and that is what we've done. So our Amazon partnership initially launched before my time in 22 and, what you would get as an Amazon Prime member is the ability to get one year of Grubhub Plus for free, which is our membership service that essentially provides $0 delivery fees which is our premier benefit, additionally $5 cash back on pickup orders, priority delivery and other exclusive offers.

This past May, we built on the initial success and really deepened that partnership to bring added value to consumers and greater sales for our restaurant partners by making the benefits ongoing to [00:05:00] Amazon subscribers. So Prime members get - as long as they're a Prime member - $0 delivery on Grubhub. Additionally, what's really unique, is that you can shop on Amazon for Grubhub. There's actually a tile on the grocery tab that you can go through and actually link your Grubhub account, get your $0 delivery benefit and start shopping, straight within the Amazon app.

Ilyse: I really didn’t know that.

Damian: That must really help you, in terms of partnerships like that must be a big help in terms of scaling.

Marnie: It really is. We started, as early days for Grubhub, we were really looking to help restaurants scale. 20 years ago, restaurants delivered their menus by putting them in mailboxes in the neighborhood and also keeping them available outside of their restaurants. And that was their scale. Now they have access to so many consumers [00:06:00] through Grubhub which originally was a tech powered menu aggregator and ultimately a tech powered order system for restaurants.

Today, it's really a three-sided business model where we service restaurants and continue to help them scale, but we also support a very large driver community that makes a living working for Grubhub as well as bringing new conveniences every day to consumers.

Damian: Let's talk about that a little bit. You mentioned that how it started and you joined the company just as Grubhub was probably thinking about its 20th birthday in 2024. what was the sort of nature of the thinking around how it was going to mark this important anniversary?

Marnie: I think the important thing when you consider that it was our 20th anniversary, is that, it's really all about what we can do for our customers. They are perhaps [00:07:00] interested in the fact that we've been around for a long time - we're the O. G in the category and that means we stand by our product and our reliable brand - but mostly they just want what they want, when they want it. They want value. They want to know that we have the restaurants that they're interested in. 

So the first thing we did was offer literally 20,000 offers to our customers, free items that they could get from restaurants like McDonald's, Popeye's, Pizza Hut, Wendy's, Panera, Taco Bell. We also offered 20 percent off several other restaurants and convenience stores, and we celebrated this under the banner of 20 years of deals because that's really what Matters to consumers and the value is something that we continue to pursue through partnerships like Amazon, where they're saving over three hundred dollars annually on [00:08:00] not paying for delivery for delivery fees on Grubhub.

So when I think back to 2004, it's hard to believe some of the other things going on at that time. MySpace was the most popular social media. That's crazy. Mark Zuckerberg had just launched the Facebook at Harvard. Google was beta testing Gmail. Shake Shack opened its first and best, if you ask me, location in New York City and OutKast had the number one song, which was Hey, yeah, if that matters.

Damian: I remember that.

Marnie: It really is amazing how much changes in 20 years and even as a third-party delivery industry, that industry has changed so much from aggregating menus, and actually the delivery part of the business didn't even start until [00:09:00] 10 years into those 20 years.

Damian: Wow. And he also started in Chicago as a local concern. And obviously you've built up a national presence since then. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Marnie: Yeah, Grubhub did launch in Chicago in 2004, and it was the brainchild of the two founders and was about aggregating menus and fully in service of restaurants.

it's beginnings are even technically before that because, the brand acquired the Seamless brand which started in 1999. But that acquisition happened in 2013. Each part of our evolution, we've [00:10:00] constantly been looking for new ways to bring value, to bring selection, to bring better service and speed to our customers.

Ilyse: And now, what innovations do you see Grubhub making even in the near term to stay on top of like emerging trends and industry changes? Obviously, A. I. Is everywhere and I know that's one thing apps like Grubhub are looking into and experimenting with, but maybe even across creative. So I'm curious about that.

Marnie: Yeah, I think that one area of excitement for us and great innovation is our campus business. So what many people don't know is that Grubhub's campus business started about six years ago with the acquisition of an Israeli based tech company called Topenia. And, today we work with more than 360 universities and, nearly 5 million students.

And what's really interesting about this [00:11:00] partnership is that it's not superficial. It's not just: download the app and you be like a regular customer on our app. They actually, depending on the university, have their dining dollars go directly through Grubhub. So when you arrive at school, one of the first things you have happen at orientation is you are told to sign up for Grubhub and link your dining dollars.

And One of the schools where my daughter actually goes is our flagship school, Ohio State University, and that is probably the most robust version of our campus partnership where we actually have the food from the campus restaurants and dining facilities delivered by robots, and I will tell you that it's pretty cool. The robots are available at a number of colleges and as we think about the future of the category, I think it's scratching the surface on what might be readily available as ways that we can you know [00:12:00] sort of buck the speed of, how we currently deliver in urban areas by bicycle and motorbike and, you know, in the suburbs by car.

So I think, drone delivery or robot delivery could be on the horizon. I also think, creatively thinking about our different categories of delivery, we have an opportunity to create more curated and exclusive experiences. There are a lot of competitors that deliver from a lot of the categories that we deliver in, but it's really about how we combine our categories and verticals of delivery to create unique experiences that you can't find anywhere else.

Damian: How important is what's going on in culture to the way you position yourself in market?

Marnie: I think that culture is really driving everything and we do a tremendous amount of paid and organic social where we aim to capitalize on cultural moments. So, you know, as we see people talking about either the brand, or about [00:13:00] food, or about Charlie XCX, or whatever it is, that we can tap into and follow a meme, or join in the conversation.

It's really important to be agile and to be able to get out there fast and just have a voice. It doesn't mean we necessarily have to create an entire campaign that taps into that cultural moment. But what we've learned is, it's really important to be in the conversation in order to drive relevance.

It is a very crowded marketplace and there are many people spending a lot of money, many competitors, but we find that influencers are really helping us, to really speak to our customers in a moment when they're, craving food, wanting to order food and we've seen terrific engagement from the programs that we're doing as well as increased brand perceptions.

And that's the other thing about partnerships, whether it be with Amazon or influencers [00:14:00] across the gamut, we really look to partner with others that help improve our brand perception and lift all boats.

Damian: As you look ahead to later this year and beyond, what are the priorities for you as a brand? Is it a question of scaling, building more couriers, building more restaurants, building more consumers? What's the kind of game plan if it could look big picture?

Marnie: Big picture, there's so much opportunity in this category to continue to grow, to delight consumers, and also to meet their needs.

So, creating more intuitive and using AI elements of the app is really important. We have a ton of data about our consumers because they're in our ecosystem, but really leveraging that data using AI and creating more intuitive experience and more seamless experience in the app is definitely a priority.

Also, as I [00:15:00] mentioned, more curated and exclusive experiences. How can we capitalize on this very unique mix of retailers essentially available on our app to create experiences that you can't find anywhere else? Partnerships is definitely a priority. How can we continue to leverage that and sort of aggregate value for customers.

And finally, speed is really important and even distance of delivery because people are looking for the restaurants they love, they're looking to get them, when they want them. 

Ilyse: that note, with all those preferences and consumer habits that obviously leads to a lot of data that you have within the app, and you briefly mentioned, using AI to make that consumer experience a little easier on the end consumer.

Can you talk about how that works with AI a little bit and perhaps maybe do you on the creative end tap that [00:16:00] data for future campaigns?

Marnie: Really, we are exploring and experimenting with A. I. And we don't have the answer or the end of that story to share yet, but we all experience it on a daily basis being online and everybody's using chat GPT to write their speeches or whatever but in the case of food delivery, it really will allow us to become more intuitive, and that's really the key because people are looking for shortcuts. They're looking for brands that get them and know them and that understand their pain points and their inflection points.

The other thing that we're doing, and this isn't necessarily using our own data, is finding opportunities for moments or milestones where we really can make a difference in people's lives. One example of this that you may have seen is we had launched in August of 2024, a special delivery campaign, which was targeted [00:17:00] at expectant moms, and we provided them based on their engagement and signing up their first meal after giving birth.

And that was really based on the insight that as you're expecting, there's a lot of things you can't eat and you crave these things, whether they're sushi or believe it or not, deli meat,  and a lot of things that could, could cause a bacteria or, an infection for the baby. So at the point where the baby is born, the first thought is, what am I going to eat?

And we were able to meet that need with a special delivery from Grubhub. So it's really about using data to get into what's important to consumers as opposed to just for data's sake.

Marnie: We have a ton of data about what consumers order and actually, every December, we produce some stats about where the trends are going and even some personal stats as a [00:18:00] Grubhub Plus member that you might receive about your own ordering habits. which can be very interesting because many of our employees find out that their kids are doing most of their ordering and they get surprised quite a bit. But one of the things that really surprises me is that the most ordered convenience store drink is not Diet Coke, which a lot of people guess. Not Celsius, which a lot of people guess. Interestingly, I know, it's Dr. Pepper.

Marnie: Another one I'm always am surprised by is the fastest growing pizza topping.

Ilyse: Pineapple? 

Marnie: Bingo. Yes, pineapple is the fastest growing pizza 

Ilyse: Not in New York. 

Marnie: Those are my two favorites.

Damian: I like that, yeah. You should have a Grubhub quiz. 

Marnie: We'll get one to you. 

Ilyse: Is it like a Spotify [00:19:00] wrapped kind of thing?

Marnie: It's exactly like a Spotify wrapped where you can learn about what you order. and then also what America's ordering. So it, it serves as a way to tap into the cultural zeitgeist.

Ilyse: Very fun

Damian: Alright, perfect. Thank you so much. 

Marnie: Thank you again for having me. 

Marnie: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

Damian:  And remember, 

Marnie: There lot of competitors that deliver from a lot of the categories that we deliver in, but it's really about how we combine our categories and verticals of delivery to create unique experiences that you can't find anywhere else.

Damian: I'm Damian.

Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Amex’s Jessica Ling sits down with The Current Podcast to discuss the biggest differences between marketing to business and to consumers, and how the brand considers the effectiveness and efficiency of marketing investments. She also touches on how Amex is reaching Gen Z by tapping into their passions and fandoms, such as a partnership with Olivia Rodrigo.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:04] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Jess Ling, Executive Vice President of Global Brand Advertising at American Express.

[00:00:12] Damian: Now, American Express, as everyone knows, is one of the world's most recognized brands. Thanks especially to its striking visual identity on its cards, which features the company logo of a centurion, which evokes trust and security. Now, Amex is a company that can chart its cultural presence through its legacy of brand campaigns, all the way to date with its powerful backing campaign.

[00:00:35] Ilyse: Jess has been at Amex for the past five years. As part of her role, she oversees Amex's in house creative agency. During her time, she's helped grow the brand's offerings into experiences and benefits for its many members.

[00:00:48] Damian: Now, Jess built her career at Amex first as a B2B marketer, but now she's a consumer facing brand marketer. We started by asking her about this transition.

[00:00:57] Damian: Jess, thank you for being here.

[00:00:59] Jess: Thank you [00:01:00] for having me.

[00:01:00] Damian: I know that you've spent six years at Verizon doing B2B marketing and your first four years at Amex were also B2B, but you've shifted now into a different department.

[00:01:10] What's that change like and what are the differences when it comes to marketing to businesses versus marketing to consumers? 

[00:01:18] Jess: Yeah, but it's a great question. I actually spent, I would say, probably the first 17 years of my career. In B to B and in revenue marketing. And even when I came to American Express, it was B to B marketing. But it was also performance marketing. So very, very heavy on the acquisition side.

[00:01:35] What I would say is, more actually unites them than separates them, right? When you think about B2B versus B2C, it is really fundamentally about knowing your audience. It's about understanding segmentation. It's about being very anchored in insights, understanding what motivates and what challenges your consumer, whether that is a small business, corporate prospect or a consumer. It's a little bit different in terms of the way we bring our brand to life, right? When you think about, more business focused channels versus consumer channels, but I would say at its core, the discipline is the same. And in fact, the rigor that you bring from B to B into B to C enables you to be a bit more focused on what are the financial and revenue implications of the work that we're doing.

[00:02:27] Damian: We're hearing that a lot more now about the CFO and the CMO being much closer together. Is that a factor for you as a marketer?

[00:02:33] Jess: you as a marketer? Financial outcomes are very important to us as a brand. It's really important. We are a performance driven culture. Much of our marketing is performance driven. I would say even on the brand side of the house, We are incredibly rigorous, and so we think a lot about not just the efficacy of our investments, but the efficiency of them.

[00:02:55] And so while I am thinking about, metrics that are a little bit, higher [00:03:00] in the funnel, so I think about consideration, I think about awareness, it's not consideration and awareness at any cost or by any means, right? So I still very deeply think, about the return on investment from a brand standpoint.

[00:03:15] Damian: Just off the back of that, how connected are the pieces of this for you? You obviously focus on global brand strategy, but you're also very much focused on, the data side of it. how important is bringing those two things together? 

[00:03:37] Jess: It’s very very important and we think about it as much as a closed loop as possible. What insights go into the strategy? How do we leverage those insights throughout the customer journey?

[00:03:42] And then how do we use data that we gain along the way to optimize, right? And so one of the things that I think can be a little bit dangerous as a one way street of insights into strategy, into plan, Without that back loop of optimization, were the insights that we used actually [00:04:00] accurate? How do we think about, improving not just the creative output or the media plan, but the foundation of data and insights that underscore it? 

[00:04:09] Ilyse: Now, American Express as a brand has gone well beyond just being a charge card or financial product, you have now positioned yourself as a brand that offers, its members like experiences and benefits. How do you think about evolving the brand while continuing to protect its legacy?

[00:04:29] Jess: Yes, that's a question we think about every day. What I would say is that we don't think of ourselves as a credit card company, right? Or we're in the financial services category, but we're very much in the business of membership. And so when someone is thinking about our brand, We need to transcend the category of, that financial transaction or that payment moment.

[00:04:52] And so our movement into experiences and lifestyle benefits is very much because we [00:05:00] believe that when you are an Amex card member, You are indeed a member, and that membership enables you access not just to seamless payment moments, but also to travel, to dining, to entertainment, and those are very sustainable categories for us. 

[00:05:18] Ilyse: Now Amex historically has been associated with wealth and status. You have the Amex gold card or the platinum card, for instance. And yet you've recently made moves to attract Gen Zers who perhaps, aren't your traditional customer. They're, they are getting older and getting more money themselves, for sure, but there's still some younger ones in that generation.

[00:05:41] Ilyse: And you've done partnerships with Olivia Rodrigo. Can you talk about these campaigns and why it's important to really connect with the younger generation?

[00:05:52] Jess: Well, first of all, Gen Z and Millennial customers are the future of our customer base. So it's very, important for us to [00:06:00] be building momentum with them.

[00:06:01] We have a very deliberate strategy. If you think about our newest card members, 60 percent of our new consumer accounts are Gen Z and Millennial. And that's not by accident, right? We have been evolving. Our product propositions to be very dynamic and responsive. And so when you think about, the question of how do you protect the brand while evolving it?

[00:06:21] What I would say is the brand is built on 174 years of trust, security and safety. And so when you think about consistency over time, what you give yourself permission to do as a brand is then evolve on that consistency, right? So in order to be innovative you have to start from a really strong foundation Where we found that innovation is very much speaking to younger audiences.

[00:06:43] And so you mentioned the Olivia Rodrigo Partnership that's an example of something that's very important to us because As an Amex card member, you're unable to get closer to the things that you love, right? And so we really try to tap into passion and fandom. [00:07:00] And Olivia is an incredible ambassador for Gen Z.

[00:07:03] And we're really excited about our ability to, whether it's pre sale, whether it's merchandise, get our card members closer to the music and the artists they love. 

[00:07:15] Damian: going back to your point about reading the tea leaves, reading the data. do you see when it comes to Gen Z consumers? And I know that's not a monolithic blog, but do they interact with the brand? in a different ways to say, more established customers.

[00:07:31] Jess: established customers? Here's what I would say about Gen Z that we, we find really interesting as a brand. They care deeply about, supporting brands that share their values, right? And for us, it's, We are a values led brand, and we are not reactive necessarily to, the thing in front of us, right? We have been, as an example, in the business of supporting small businesses for a very long time. And what we find is that Gen Z consumers care deeply about community. They care deeply about small [00:08:00] business. And it's a very natural intersection with where American Express has always been.

[00:08:04] And so You know, I think the trick is we're not creating a platform to respond to what Gen Z is interested in. We happen to already be there from a value standpoint, and we find that our consumers, especially the younger ones, it really resonates with them. And

[00:08:20] Damian: and speaking of reaching, those audiences, are there any particular nuances to the way you go about doing that? in the current environment, we're talking about the rise of CTV and all of these different opportunities.

[00:08:32] Jess: Yeah, there are a couple. I will. I'll speak to one example. We're really excited and proud of. We have had a partnership with the bear, which is a show on FX, for two seasons now. And one of the reasons we're so excited about it is because it's a new show. The conversation about the show is bigger than the show, right?

[00:08:48] Just like as a brand, the conversation around Amex is bigger than the card. And so we really look for adjacencies that help us tap into the cultural zeitgeist, right? And when you think [00:09:00] about an opportunity like The Bear, it's the perfect platform for Amex. It's about a small business owner, it's about dining, there's incredible social dialogue about it.

[00:09:09] And so that's one example of how we go outside of traditional advertising to build that connection and relevance.

[00:09:15] Damian: On that point, I guess, the idea that it's a customer centric brand, could you say a little bit more about how you center and focus on the customer?

[00:09:23] Ilyse: Yes,

[00:09:24] Jess: absolutely. So we have a global brand platform.

[00:09:27] It's called powerful backing, and it really is rooted in that 174 years of trust, security and service. And at the core are our customers, right? And so when we think about whether it's an ad campaign, whether it's a product, whatever it is, how does it manifest that brand promise of powerful backing? And one of the questions that we think about a lot is consistency through the line, right?

[00:09:50] So. Whether you see us on social media, whether you see us in TV, whether you see us, in a more sort of direct response, type piece of communication, we still want to make sure that you're [00:10:00] feeling the brand come through, and that when you are a customer, every transaction, every interaction you have, you should feel backed, by the membership.

[00:10:08] I want to

[00:10:09] Ilyse: to talk a little bit about live sports because American Express has such a big presence at a ton of major live sports events. I believe like 47 venues and teams all together, which is just a huge number. and that includes like NBA and US Open, Wimbledon and more. why do these events hold so much power for Amex?

[00:10:32] Jess: They hold power because passion around sports and live sports is an enduring passion, right?

[00:10:38] It is. I think we just celebrated our 31st year of partnership with the U. S. T. A. And the U. S. Open. We have a very longstanding partnership with the N. B. A. We have a partnership with F one in the Americas that were very excited about. And it's because the conversation and the passion around sports is deeply meaningful [00:11:00] to our customers and our ability to get them benefits and access that are so connected to what they love. Is very important for us and is an enduring platform. What does it

[00:11:11] Ilyse: it mean for a legacy brand like Amex that, dates back to 1847? I believe 1850, I was close. 1850, to stay relevant in today's world. and how do you, I guess, maintain that consistency as, a luxury product, but also integrated into, everyday life? Yeah,

[00:11:33] Jess: I think it is about, very closely watching the balance between staying consistent as a brand so that our customers and our prospects.

[00:11:42] know deeply what we stand for, and what experience they'll have once they become a card member and leveraging that consistency to be very dynamic and innovative on the product front. And I think that's how we balance it, right? When you think about the American express brand over time, it should still evoke [00:12:00] the same emotion, right?

[00:12:01] Powerful backing, access to the things that you're passionate about. But when you think about how our products have evolved over time, If I point out just the recent gold card, right, we just refreshed American Express gold and it's full of incredibly relevant dining benefits, right? There's a Dunkin benefit.

[00:12:19] There's a partnership with Rezzy and benefits there, which are very, very, they're very anchored towards speaking to the audience and what they're looking for today. So we really think about that complement between stable brand, consistent brand and dynamic products.

[00:12:35] Damian: As you're in charge of the brand story, if you like, do you look back at the legacy of amazing campaigns that American Express has had in the, throughout the, last 50 years have a and build on that? 

[00:12:48] Jess: Yes, in fact, question a very, very rich history. And what I would say that I'm so proud of is that the history of our brand is often told through the advertising. Right? And so when you look back in time at [00:13:00] 174 years of a brand, and we do have this history, we look at it, my teams are trained in it. What you see is every Big moment in the company's history is paired with what was the advertising of the brand at that time.

[00:13:14] And so for us, our history and our heritage, we live that every day. And when we think about how to bring that forward, it is with all of the equity of the advertising that came before us.

[00:13:26] Damian: is question off that. Is era of fragmentation? 

[00:13:35] Jess: it's not because we have a global brand platform, right? So no matter where you are in the world You should feel the brand come to life in a way that brings powerful backing to the front. what we've made major progress on is making sure that as a consumer, when you take your American Express card with you around the globe, that you're confident in, the acceptance around, the world in terms of, being able to buy with confidence at merchants that [00:14:00] you want to support. And so we've made, huge strides there, but we continue to be a globally consistent brand. One thing I wanted

[00:14:07] Damian: I wanted to ask you about, obviously American Express by definition is a U. S. brand. And I've noticed sometimes it's less used, perhaps in Europe. I'm wondering if you see areas of opportunity to build out the brand, build that growth story in other markets.

[00:14:22] Jess: other markets?

[00:14:23] Yeah, and I think, look, there are markets that very important to us. There are growing markets that we are, a little bit newer as a brand, in terms of our penetration there. but what I would say is when you think about, a market like the UK, you'll see us, you can, you'll see us come to life in powerful ways from a brand standpoint. You'll see us at Wimbledon. you'll see us in music festivals. And when you're out there using your card in everyday ways, it'll be a seamless experience for you.

[00:14:51] Damian: Yeah, I do see that at Wimbledon and, and around those major music festivals. Yeah.

[00:14:57] Ilyse: as a, charge card financial [00:15:00] product, American Express has a lot of consumer data at its fingertips. How does that data help you in any way with the creative process? When it comes to branding and campaigns, do you consider it whether it's like business outcomes or in the KPIs that you said?

[00:15:19] Jess: mean, what I would say is, at its core, my job is to tell great stories, that are grounded in insights that, of course, are backed by data. what I would say is, when we think about our creative strategy and we look at data and insight, It's two things need to be true. They need to be true in culture and they need to be true for American Express.

[00:15:39] If they're only true for one half of that equation, it doesn't resonate. And so I'll give you a quick example. we have a ton of data and in one of our recent travel studies, we found that I think it was over 75 percent of millennials want to take a solo trip this year. So it's certainly true for American Express, but you can't go on Tik and not see amazing [00:16:00] travel adventures of millennial and Gen Z people taking vacations alone, right? So again, it's an example of something that we're seeing our customers do and something that is true and identifiable in culture. And so that becomes a creative territory for us, right? How do we then create stories based on that insight?

[00:16:17] And we launched a piece of creative. It's called all by myself, and it's about a woman traveling on her own to Greece, and she collects friends and experiences along the way. And of course. and it's leveraging the benefits of American Express. And so it's only through that combination that we really get the most out of the data and insights.

[00:16:35] Ilyse: All right, so Jess, tell me, what does it mean for a legacy brand like Amex to stay relevant?

[00:16:42] You obviously have been around since 1850, which is a long time. And how do you then maintain that consistency as a luxury product, but also integrate into everyday life?

[00:16:55] Jess: great question. Um, and we think that all of the time. And [00:17:00] it really is, that balance between a very consistent, stable and disciplined brand, which over time you mentioned since 18 50 we have stayed true to the values of trust, security and service, right?

[00:17:13] And so when you build on that foundation, you're then able to create a very dynamic product set that is responsive to the needs of today's consumers. And so one example that I will give because you asked about everyday value, Is that we recently refreshed the MX gold product, and it is very much built for purpose for today's customer, right?

[00:17:35] And so when you think about the benefits on that card, it's very dining forward because we know that our customers, especially Gen Z and millennial customers are obsessed with great dining. They're obsessed with food and experiences, and so it's one way in which we keep true to the brand while also continuing to innovate and elevate through our products.

[00:17:57] Damian: So Jess, you oversee Amex's in house creative [00:18:00] agency. What does it mean to have the agency in house? How does that give you flexibility and agility, which is one of the key buzzwords

[00:18:07] Jess: buzzwords, right? It is, it's an incredible privilege to lead our in house creative agency. It's called On Brand. it's full of incredibly talented, creative folks, but also project managers and account managers and strategists. and we really leverage On Brand to create, excellent creative quality. On Brand.

[00:18:27] Throughout the enterprise. And so, when I think about our brand, you think about The sort of big advertising channels that we do, and we have agencies of record who help us with that on Brent also contributes to that. But we do still have a roster of really, really close agency partners. But when you think about the internal agency, think about all of the advertising and communication that go out from the business units.

[00:18:50] That talk to our colleagues that talk to prospective colleagues. and all of that, having that in house really led by brand stewards. These people work at the brand. They live and [00:19:00] breathe the MX brand. it pays dividends in terms of the quality of the work, our ability to partner across American Express.

[00:19:08] and of course, to deliver more efficiency. 

[00:20:18] Damian: Okay, yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for your time and insight.

[00:20:23] Jess: It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:20:26] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:20:28] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:31] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:37] Damian: And remember, 

[00:20:39] Jess: When you look back in time at 174 years of a brand, What you see is every Big moment in the company's history is paired with what was the advertising of the brand at that time.

[00:20:51] And so for us, our history and our heritage, we live that every day. And when we think about how to bring that forward, it is [00:21:00] with all of the equity of the advertising that came before us. 

[00:21:03] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:21:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:21:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Goalhanger's Tony Pastor explores building the U.K.’s leading independent podcast production company which includes shows like The Rest is History, The Rest is Politics and The Rest is Football.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we sit down with Tony Pastor, the co-founder of Goalhanger, the UK's leading independent podcast production company. After a career as a TV producer, first at the BBC and then at ITV in the sports department, Tony teamed up with Gary Lineker, the former international football star turned broadcaster, to create the company.

It launched its podcast hub in 2019. In just a few years, Goal Hanger has gone from strength to strength with hit podcast shows like The Rest is Football and The Rest is History, which apparently clock up 42 million downloads a month and counting. We'll get into the creative process in a minute about what makes these shows so successful.

But first, I wanted to ask Tony about how Goalhanger was created. 

Tony: I set up Goal Hanger with my co host Gary Lineker, who in the UK is a well known media figure and former [00:01:00] footballer back in 2014. I'd been, a producer at ITV, a big TV company in the UK, and then left to set up my own production company. We concentrated largely on making sports documentaries, and then slowly the business changed, and, by 2019, we were launching our own podcasts, and in the last couple of years, it's become the main part of our business. 

Damian: You know, the podcast hub was launched, I know more recently than the actual whole production company and it's now like hosting some of the UK's most popular podcasts. I know that the company's just reported record audience figures for the May, July period this 2024. Big hit shows like the rest is football, which is co hosted by Gary Lineker.

And the rest is politics and several others, you know, I'm kind of curious to how you achieved this in a world with, let's say, tens of thousands of podcasts. 

Tony: Well, it's a good question. [00:02:00] And the big challenge in the world of podcasting is discoverability. It's not easy for audiences, listeners to find new content. There's an awful lot of really good podcasts out there, but unfortunately they're not easy to find. We have had a bit of luck on that front because once you build a successful podcast, you can then tell people about anything new that you do.

And there's no doubt that the number one way you can make sure that people know about a new podcast is if they're already listening to a podcast because they're on the right platform there, then they're enjoying the right form of medium. Once we had the rest is history at a super successful level, it made the launch of political shows and our entertainment shows and our sports shows that bit easier .

Damian: So the rest is history was the kind of vehicle was the kind of prototype as it were. Is that fair? 

Tony: Well, actually we launched a podcast, that was a real niche podcast, in 2019. It's called we have ways of making you talk and [00:03:00] it's all about the history of the second world war and I did it really almost as a hobby. It was great fun. I launched it with a great historian called James Holland and a comedian called Al Murray, both of whom are real aficionados of the period.

It quite quickly became a bit of a cult. No doubt lockdown during the COVID period helped in a way because it meant people were stuck at home seeking content. Podcasts are, producible remotely, we were able to really up the amount of content we produced. Suddenly it went from being very niche to some, to having quite a significant audience. And then the next iteration really was to say, we've got a successful podcaster that is, doing north of a million downloads a month, it's making some money and what would happen if we, did a podcast about more than just six years of history? In fact, let's do the whole of history.

And that's how the rest is history was born and it broke out, became a super success and it really showed us that the format of intelligent people talking in an entertaining way about something they know a great deal about [00:04:00] really could work. 

Damian: That's pretty ambitious. I've got to say, the idea of doing the whole of history. And I've got to say, I am an avid listener to the rest is history. Absolutely fantastic show with the two co-hosts, Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland, who've got this got this brilliant rapport. Between them, I'm wondering if you could sort of like for people who haven't heard it  just give a kind of distillation of the kind of tone and style of that podcast. 

Tony: Sure, it's a history podcast. It tells narrative stories, fabulous stories from history. Be that the story of Napoleon or the French revolution or the sinking of the Titanic, the rise of the Nazis. These are all subjects that have been covered extensively in the last 12 months, for example. But what it really does is it's two, people who know an awful lot about the subject, who research it really, really well, but then have a fantastic conversation.

Fairly light conversation in a very entertaining, witty, well informed way. The best way I can [00:05:00] describe the tone of voice of The Rest is History is if you could imagine being sat in a bar or a cafe and hearing two people who know each other really well and are good mates chatting about something they're fascinated by in a very entertaining way. That's The Rest is History. 

Damian: And that formula also kind of carries over into the other podcasts, like for instance, the rest is football similarly, it's like, three guys having a kind of elevated, smart, funny conversation about what's just happened in the week, the week in, whether it be the Premier League or international football or what have you, is that fair? 

Tony: Yes, I think that is fair. I mean, we don't, create relationships on air with our podcasters. We basically, listen in on relationships that already exist. So Gary Lineker, Micah Richards and Alan Shearer, all great soccer players in their own right. But more important than that, their mates, and you get a real strong sense of that when you listen to them talking, they love their football, they watch it endlessly, they [00:06:00] have a WhatsApp group that frankly you could publish and probably get 100,000 subscribers to, it's so entertaining, it's all about what's going on in football constantly, and they basically bring that conversational style, that very matey friendly, but intelligent and analytical style to their conversations three times a week on a Monday, they look back over the weekend's action on a Wednesday.

They try and answer as many of the audience's questions as they can. And on Friday they review the midweek and look forward to the weekend. So it's an ongoing conversation, between three guys who frankly. If we weren't recording it, would be having the same conversations anyway.

Damian: I love that, insight. 

Damian: So I want to shift a little bit to ask you about the, business perspective. And what need, as it were, did you tap in the UK market? Which, obviously has a wide variety and diversity of broadcast options because the BBC is there. So, how did you get that market? 

Tony: Well, I think first of all, I would say that the BBC does a brilliant, brilliant [00:07:00] job. It's a wonderful broadcast that makes an incredible amount of diverse content, but it has to, it has to serve an awful lot of people so it can, find itself spread a little thin. One of the great attributes of podcasting as we discovered with our second world war history pod is that you can super serve a group of people who want something very specific.

So the second world war pod is listened to by about 80 to 100,000 people. But it's listened to by them religiously twice a week and that means we get 1. 2 million downloads a month. That audience is not being served anywhere else. So that was our first insight. We then looked at kind of the broader history offering in traditional radio and it was all slightly stale.

It had been the same for a long time when we wanted to have a slightly fresher, newer, more entertainment focused approach and, I'd like to tell you it was super planned, but in fact, it was about getting too [00:08:00] great talent to have good conversations. And, we spent nothing on marketing the entire growth of that podcast.

The question I get asked most, which is really insightful in many ways, I think was it, why wasn't history taught like this at school?

If it had been taught like this at school, I would never have dropped it as a subject. I've always loved history, but it was always done in such a dry way. Why couldn't it have been taught in this entertaining fashion at school? And I hope that's what we're actually providing for those for all those millions of people who love their history. We're giving them a new access point to it.

Damian: Yeah, absolutely. I just listened to the five part series on Martin Luther and I remember going back to my history A level where I had, you know, hopefully she's not listening, but a pretty dull history teacher, but I learned everything about Martin Luther now, all these years later from that podcast. Absolutely brilliant with all its references. 

Tony: Absolutely, so there's one other thing I'm going to say to you which is, I think the commissioning model is slightly broken. I think the traditional model whereby somebody in their [00:09:00] broadcast ivory tower decides whether or not a pitch, a content pitch, will be the right thing for their audience.

I think it just doesn't work anymore. There's, it's too, we've got to a point now where commissioners are trying to satisfy too many things at once. Whereas we can just say, this is what we want to do. We don't need a commissioner. We don't need, the finances of a traditional broadcaster.

We'll self fund this. We believe in it. We can experiment. We can try stuff and it's been liberating for us creatively because we can, we can decide we want to do a podcast on Martin Luther which frankly nobody would ever commission and we can do it. And lo and behold it found a terrific audience,  likewise we did, you know we did four parts on the falklands war.

We did an extended season on custer. We did a long series on the nazis now the nazis will always get covered  in traditional media. But,  we were able to do, for example, this year, we took the guys to Sarajevo to talk about the start [00:10:00] of the first world war and the first shot that was fired, the assassination of our shoot, Franz ferdinand, you know, that's the kind of thing I just don't think traditional broadcasters are going to commission, but we're able to do it and find an audience with it.

Damian: Yeah, I want to ask you a little bit about the revenue model from a business perspective. you know, um, a little bit, we, we keep hearing in the U S about the ad opportunity, especially in podcasts. I'm curious from your perspective, what's that opportunity like in the UK? 

Tony: Well, the ad part of it is challenging. The UK is not a very big market. It is nothing like the US market. For example, the advertising slash sponsorship market in the US around podcasting is something like $4 billion a year. In the UK it's more like a hundred million. Dollars a year. It's a pretty small pizza in terms of, that needs slicing up between, all the commercial players in the UK and frankly, if the BBC enter into this market as they're [00:11:00] threatening to do, it will be even more challenging for us.

We've had to be pretty creative around the commercial side of it. So yes, we're absolutely fishing in the advertising and sponsorship pond, but we're also looking at subscription models. In fact, we've got six very successful subscription clubs for our podcasts. This is where audiences, super fans who really love the pod can get access early, can get it ad free, can get bonus content, can get live show tickets early, et cetera. And that's proved very successful. We also do live shows and the live shows, do very well. You know, the rest is history last night we did it live in Cambridge, in the university center, Cambridge in front of more than a thousand people. The rest is politics is going on a nationwide tour. We're doing seven cities. We've sold 30, 000 tickets across that tour. So yes, we've had to be quite. Smart, frankly, and see disparate potential,  financial models for our podcasts so that they can really function. 

Damian: Yeah, it makes [00:12:00] sense. I know,  people talk a lot about the kind of, the special relationship that, Podcast hosts have with their audience and sort of ipso facto that kind of translates a little bit into advertising and how advertising works, whether it be host read or ~whether it comes in,

Tony: programmaticly

Damian: programmatically. yeah. that's the word. I'm kind of curious to hear what response you've had from advertisers, in terms of what's your pitch to them? 

Tony: Yeah. I mean, our pitch to them is really relatively straightforward unlike nearly all other forms of media currently we're growing, the traditional TV and radio commercial radio models are shrinking. They're struggling. It's not easy for them. The streamers, Netflix and Apple And all the usual customers are now.

Causing traditional TV to have to be very inventive and work with smaller budgets. We're the opposite. We know the, the podcast market is growing. every year. Our audience is very [00:13:00] young, so we skew much younger than all of the other mediums. So, 48 percent of our listeners are under 34. So half of our audience is effectively in their teens, twenties and early thirties, which is,  attractive to commercial partners.

And, we have very, very long listen times. People are fine, find the content compelling and engaging. So,  the rest of history's average listen time is 41 minutes. Now,  this is great news. I'm always very reassured by this because people have told me for a long time that young audiences want only bite sized content that they can swipe through and everything has to be a minute or less. What we might call the tick tock generation.

Well, we're discovering that's not true  People in their twenties and thirties want long form, intelligent, entertaining conversations. They want, they want to hear content that entertains them, that informs them, that educates them. I'm starting to sound positively BBC wreathian, but you know, they basically They basically do want [00:14:00] long form.

People are commuting, they're exercising, they're walking dogs, they're cooking. They want to have something that entertains them, that, that informs them and a lot of people we know listen to our podcasts while they're doing something else. So I think the sell to commercial partners really is that, our listeners are super engaged. They're young, they're highly educated and by and large,  we've done surveys, by the way, large scale surveys of over 20, 000 of our listeners, they earn really good salaries. They usually are executive and managerial levels in their businesses. These are the movers and shakers, the people who inform the way that,  that our nations are moving. So there are really, really interesting and valuable audience. 

Damian: Yeah, it's, such a cliche now to say that young people have no attention. Clearly that's, that's not the case. 

Tony: It's, it's, it's absolute nonsense. It's not true. 

Damian: Yeah, it really is. And It's reassuring to hear that too. You know, in terms of the,  you mentioned it's growing. How far can it grow? What's the sort of [00:15:00] scale you can, when you think about I think the statistic I read was that 20 percent of UK listeners listen to a podcast every week. That's a lot of headroom, right? You've got left. 

Tony: Oh, it's super exciting on that score. We are definitely nowhere near peak podcasting. I can tell you why, because nobody over about 55 is listening to podcasts because they, they never did. They didn't do growing up with it. The older generations, the people who are perhaps retired and who would enjoy our podcast most are just not listening.

, They're perhaps didn't grow up with the technology. They're not quite as comfortable, opening an app and downloading audio content. I think that as people age with that native ability to use the technology and enjoy the content, there's a whole generation of people we will add between say 55 and 80, whatever, who will suddenly become listeners.

There's probably 30 percent upside just when we start being listened to and enjoyed by an older generation, which is not happening at the moment.

Damian: [00:16:00] That's a great point. Yeah, I think as people, get used to the tech, that's it. And then I don't, who knows what's coming up. You also have talked about, pushing podcasts into video as well.  And I are talking right now on zoom, but people listening are just listening to this, with their air pods or what have you, what's the benefit in a way of, pushing podcasts, onto video, is it to see those hosts sparring with each other, people are curious.

Tony: This is the area that intrigues us most about what we do. The advent of video really came from the US.

We started to hear Prominent podcasters talk about watching podcasts rather than listening to podcasts. And we started to ask ourselves, why are they doing that?

What is the gain? Surely it's not just for the programmatic ads on YouTube or Facebook. We were determined to trial it and see what the benefits were by practice, by actually trying it out. 

And what we discovered was, This was [00:17:00] an entirely different audience. So for example, during the euros, as I mentioned, 9. 7 million audio downloads and 10 million video downloads. They're not the same people with that. This was entirely additional audience. The other thing about it is, but there's a couple of things.

One is that it helps with cross promotion. We can cut this content up, put a push it out on social, on Insta and Tik TOK and Twitter, et cetera. But also when it comes to having partnerships, you know, with some of the bigger brands, there's that, that hundred million dollar UK podcast market is suddenly much greater.

If you're talking to brands about partnerships that include video and social, there's a whole extra set of people you're in conversation with. And so you can effectively turn a podcast back into a show, a 360 show, which. Frankly, we don't mind where people encounter. We don't mind whether you watch, you listen, you see the clips on your social media feeds.

As long as you're encountering our [00:18:00] content, we're happy. And that's really why we've pushed so heavily into video.

So we take the opposite position of the walled garden. We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be?

Damian: Yeah, love that. Love that thought. Is podcast growth dependent to a certain extent on those different platforms and platform growth? You know, if people listen through Spotify or Apple, what have you? 

Tony: Well, I don't know whether it's dependent on that growth. It's an interesting question. What I can say is that we're agnostic. We don't mind where you are. We have a really good relationship with Spotify who are our, ad and sponsorship sales partner. But similarly, you know, we have a great relationship with Apple too, who handle a lot of our subscription clubs.

And frankly, as I say, you know if you're there on YouTube or if you're there on Apple or Spotify, that's all fine. Yes, it does require people to be digitally native and comfortable with the digital platforms, but increasingly, as I say, apart from [00:19:00] perhaps my father's generation, who I still have to download podcasts for, you know apart from his generation,  I think most people now are pretty comfortable with the media. 

Damian: So one of the great advantages of podcast production is that you, have a very close relationship with your audience. Could you give me some insight into how that breaks down in terms of subscribers and people who listen for free? What are you seeing?

Tony: Sure. What we're seeing is that unlike the traditional, media relationship whereby a production company like us, we're Goalhanger. We would go in to see the commissioner at the BBC or channel four or ITV or NBC and we pitched them our idea and they would either say yes or no, usually no.

But if they did commission it, we'd make it for them. We'd hopefully keep doing it. 10 percent production fee, they would then put it out. They would sell the ad slots to,  commercial partners and ultimately the relationship between the production company and the final audience is really remote.

So ours is [00:20:00] really close. When we put our pods out free to air,  the audience listens to them. They contact us. We incorporate their questions. We have a very good relationship, very close relationship, but not nearly as close as we do with our subscribers. We've got about 90, 000 subscribers across our various podcasts.

And what they get is a direct personal relationship with us. There's no, advertising. There's no sponsorship.  They don't have to wait for a podcast. So for example,  we'll, do a, six part series on the sinking of the Titanic. You can listen to that content spread out over three weeks for free with ads, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, or if you're a subscriber on that first Monday, you can have all six episodes immediately as a box set.

That kind of a relationship is, I think, unique to podcasting where you love the content. You decide that for the Cost of an oat milk latte. You can basically get all six episodes immediately. And many of our listeners now are just saying, you know what? I want my content clean. I'd like to just come to you direct.

I'll have it [00:21:00] immediately. By the way, I'd love to get prioritized for the live tickets for the show in New York. I'd like to get them ahead of the rest of the public. And so you develop this fantastic relationship with your listeners and your fans. 

Damian: There seems to be a kind of recognition that staying authentic, is the way to scale. I was just, I was reading some comments by, Netflix boss Ted Sarandos at the RTS conference, Royal Television Society conference, who was saying, one of the big hits this year for them was Baby Reindeer, which is a very UK, British sensibility, but yet it's done really well. They didn't pander to a global audience. They kept it authentic. It seems like that is the same formula that's having success for you. 

Tony: Well, it's really interesting this, isn't it? Because,  I've got three, I've got three, sons, two teenagers and a 20 year old, and they're watching tons of content on Netflix and, uh, and the variety of the streamers, and they're very happy watching, for example, Korean TV with subtitles. They'll watch dramas from Scandinavia with subtitles. They're very comfortable. [00:22:00] Watching authentic drama and cultural content from other nations. I don't know whether the kind of globalization of content has finally happened, the days when, if it didn't, when, if a movie didn't have a, an American star, it could never be watched around the world.

I think it's gone. I think people are much more comfortable enjoying content from a variety of nations.

Damian: Well, Tony, thank you so much for these insights. Great talking with you. 

Tony: An absolute pleasure. Thanks very much for having me on.

Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. The current podcast theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Kearns. And remember,

Tony: We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be.

Damian: I'm Damian and we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

Also tune into our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The U.S. CMO of the luxury car company discusses how integrating Jaguar Land Rover’s brand alongside popular shows like Succession and The Gentlemen has helped deliver its message of quiet luxury.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Ilyse: [00:00:00] I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian: And I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.

Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Charlotte Blank, U.S. Chief Marketing Officer of Jaguar Land Rover North America.

Ilyse: Charlotte is responsible for JLR's House of brands, which includes the Land Rover Defender and Discovery, the Range Rover, as well as the new line of all electric Jaguar cars.

Damian: Before she joined JLI, before she joined JLR, Charlotte gave a TED Talk in 2019 called Lead Like a Scientist, where she examined the psychology of motivation and what it means to lead.

Ilyse: Charlotte says she's obsessed with testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. So that's where we started. 

Damian: So hi, Charlotte. Thank you for joining us.

Charlotte: Thank you for having me.

Damian: In 2019, you did a TED talk called lead like a scientist in which, you talked about the importance of testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. Now, is that something you put into practice in your current role as CMO at JLR

Charlotte: I would like to think so and I think there's room to do even more. I describe myself as a marketer by way of psychology. I did that TED Talk in a previous role as Chief Behavioral Officer of an incentive and motivation company where I really got to be at the forefront of research in behavioral economics and studying what we know about human behavior and social science and how that plays into understanding and motivating people to take action, which essentially is at the core of marketing.

So we have so much of an opportunity to act and lead like scientists when we wear our hat as a marketing leader. 

Damian: And what can other marketers do to sort of take some of those lessons that you were expressing in that talk? You know, and how can they integrate that into their daily work?

Charlotte: I think to lead like a scientist, first and foremost, means to test things, to run experiments, and by that I mean true randomized controlled experiments, hold out test controls with properly randomized groups. And really from an applied standpoint, I think [00:02:00] marketers have been leading the way here. I mean, A B tests are standard practice. We see them as common practice in digital advertising and website optimization - really, it's kind of part of the daily work of being an excellent digital marketer in particular is to constantly be A B testing. But I think where there's more of an interesting opportunity to grow is more hypothesis driven testing. So not just the: “Will I see more clicks if I move this important box from the bottom of the page to the top?” But more: “I have this insight about something that really differentiates the consumers I'm trying to reach and how can I craft my messaging to get at that core psychological insight and testing those?” That I think is sort of the next step and where we can really make a difference.

Damian: Could you give us an example of how you, you're putting that into practice at JLR?

Charlotte: Absolutely. So we are on an exciting journey at JLR as part of our modern luxury transformation. We're really elevating the brands and taking everything up market and really responding to the rise in [00:03:00] wealth and the consumers that we reach from a modern luxury perspective. And part of the strategy to bring that to life is ‘House of Brands’.

So JLR really no longer goes to market with the Land Rover brand as the front facing brand, but it fades back to allow Range Rover Defender and Discovery each to thrive in their own right. So this is an exciting opportunity for marketers to really tease apart the difference, for example, between a Range Rover customer and a Defender client. And that's really where the psychological insights come into play. So we've been doing some really interesting research that finds these ‘core differentiating nuggets’, we call them. 

Just off the top of my head, some interesting insights were: Range Rover Sport target is extremely psychologically rich. They thrive in busyness and sort of the chaos of daily life that many of us know. Some of us love, some of us don't love. The Range Rover sport person loves to be very busy and to have their hands in lots of different things and they're rather impulsive. They lack the ability to delay gratification, and they don't [00:04:00] like to be overly structured or routine.

So they like to just kind of go for it and go for their dreams and not really overthink things because they can handle doing multiple things at once. So I think you'll see, for example, in the new Range Rover Sport Creative as part of our new Velocity Blue campaign starring Theo James. He kind of exhibits that in the commercial.

You see him sort of exploring the property, racing the car around the grounds, and going for an action to what turns out to be simply playing fetch with his dog. But it's this kind of heroic, fast paced scene that really brings to life that sort of busyness and a bit of impulsivity.

Ilyse: bit of impulse. Now, as far as that campaign and then like future campaigns, you've talked a lot about the importance of media mix modeling. I'm curious why this is important  and would you say it's easier now to lead like a scientist in a marketing world that is more data driven?

Charlotte: We're very excited to kick off our MMM (Media Mix Modelling) project. I think two weeks from today we're starting our [00:05:00] really what we're calling our marketing mix project because I think this is finally our chance to put all of the pieces really together in a rigorous scientific data driven way so that we can get a little more sophisticated about understanding and right sizing the expectations for what advertising investment can do in the short term when it comes to sales and that I'm kind of recognizing that in the automotive industry and probably in most others that it's not only about the advertising, but it's about the media strategy being carefully executed in concert with getting all the other pieces, right.

Is the pricing right? Are the incentives right? What are the competitors doing? How old is the product? There are all of these factors that come into play, and we can put them all into the model to help us make better decisions about where to place a dollar at any given time for any particular model, and it may or may not be in more media. It might be for new creative, or it might be on adjusting the price. It might differ depending on the product, so I think that's going to make us, as a collective [00:06:00] enterprise, a lot more intelligent and data driven.

Ilyse: intelligent. On that note, are there different markets for different vehicles across JLR brands?

Damian: the

Charlotte: Of course. I mean, that's really part of the fun of differentiating the four brands is they really are different core audiences. And again, this comes back for me to psychology, that when we look at the surface level at the demographics and we simply ask questions like: How old are these people? Are they married? What is their average household income? They look relatively similar to each other and to competitive brands, but we take another level down, we start peeling the onion and we look at: Well, how do they spend their time? And then we look even deeper: But what really drives them? What motivates them? What stage of life are they in psychologically? That's where they start to feel really different.

So that can come to life in the ‘where’ and ‘how’ we approach our media buys and the partnerships we explore. But it also, again, you know, creative is king. It comes into the messaging and how we craft a story that resonates with people.

Damian: I just gotta say on that [00:07:00] note, I did love the Theo James spot. The Range Rover spot because it was filmed at Harewood House, which is very close to where I grew up in Yorkshire. So I think I'm in the market for one of those and the same color, too.

Charlotte: I was thrilled to hear that when you share that with me in your beautiful English accent, because it is, it's a really special location that was carefully chosen, partly to bring about that English heritage, you know, that's something that is such a special gift and a unique, ~um,~ distinctive asset for the Range Rover brand is ~that~ that English heritage going back to the queen and the royal family.

And I think we've ~kind of~ gone through phases about how much in the degree that we play that up. But the time feels right culturally to really ~kind of ~celebrate that and bring forth a bit of cheeky modern Britishness. to the Range Rover sport brand and truly there's no better character for that than Theo James.

You know what he brought to life in the Gentleman hit series on Netflix. ~Um,~ Range Rover was heavily integrated in that show. So we already benefited from the show's popularity and Theo's popularity and have a bit of [00:08:00] equity built with him. So I think it's just perfect that we got him to sort of star in the campaign

Ilyse: to sort of star in the character.

Not to

Charlotte: quite handsome. That's true.

Ilyse: And it is all about like marketing a lifestyle just as much as a vehicle.

Charlotte: 100%. That's, that couldn't be more true, especially for a luxury brand.

Ilyse: brand. And we

Damian: we hear a lot, ~um,~ now of the importance of marketing being relevant to culture and that's a very good example of how you're tying in. You know relevance to cultural moments, ~you know,~ especially premium content like you mentioned white lotus the gentleman. ~It's ~It's sort of all aligned in lots of

Charlotte: I am a huge fan of branded entertainment. Where people spend their leisure time, where their captive audience in front of a big screen in the comfort of their own home, and where they binge watch their favorite shows, Netflix, HBO. We've seen some incredible return on investment when we integrate our vehicles and our brand experience in a highly curated way, against some of these popular shows.

Succession comes to mind. ~You know,~ Succession really brought in [00:09:00] this. notion of quiet wealth and like the uber luxury in a way that's a little bit more understated and reductive. The clothing they wear with the million dollar sweaters that just look really simple. There's something about ~that~ that really resonates with the Range Rover brand and the design aesthetic that's not overtly flashy or gaudy, ~um,~ but is a little more reductive and minimalist in design and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to life.

Damian: and minimalist in design, and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to me. What insights have you got there around marketing to that group, that younger demographic, ~uh,~ especially given the fact that you're ~kind of ~leading with data?

Charlotte: I think it's really important. ~I mean,~ we have to remind ourselves as as much as we do pay attention to performance marketing, and we've built a world class sophisticated martech stack and a [00:10:00] really strong team of digital marketers who are highly attuned to those kind of purchase intense signals and closing demand, ~you know,~ focusing on that lower part of the funnel. But at the end of the day, especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really build that love in people's hearts. And it, for many people starts early. I mean, some of the most interesting research I've seen, it's as if people are lying on a psychiatrist's couch, going back to their literal childhood memories: What does Range Rover mean to me in my heart?

They're thinking about,~ you know,~ their father driving one, or the royal family, some early memories they had of it, or a show that they've seen, ~you know,~ brand and entertainment really comes to mind.~ Um,~ Defenders, ~um, ~sort of rocketing onto the scene in the recent James Bond movie with this really spectacular car chase is an example that, you know, is meant to appeal not only to people who are in market now or can afford one now, but potentially to, to the younger generations who might, ~you~ You know, put the theoretical poster up on the wall and dream of it in the future.

So I think that's really important for us marketers.

Ilyse: And that really,  ties into like. [00:11:00] Personalized journeys, especially if they look back at how they even came across the brand to begin with. When it comes to that as well, which channels are you testing as you like focus on like scale? 

Charlotte: We're always testing new channels for scale. You know, a lot of our focus around building the upper funnel and growing our brands tremendously. Defender. We doubled sales in the U. S. last year. From, around 15, 000 a year to over 30 and did that very quickly with just a really concerted focus on building awareness, breaking through with really effective creative that drove breakthrough recall and brought a lot of new audiences, into awareness of the brand.

And I think, the way to do that is to get some of the brilliant basics right. Which means really good, creative, really strong media plans that index heavily on scale-based channels like CTV. We did a lot of TV, we've been in podcasting, audio. When we [00:12:00] think of the 'see, think, do’ framework, really focusing on the ‘see’ to build new audiences and build that upper funnel.

Damian: That's an incredible statistic you just shared about doubling sales last year of Defender, and that's through brand, sort of brand building.

Charlotte: Indeed, as well as physical experiential activations, as well is a big part of our marketing mix. We host every year the Destination Defender Festival, which grows each year. We have an incredible cause marketing platform for Defender called the Defender Service Awards, which gives us a platform to showcase the capability and off road and durability of the car in context of these really emotional lifestyle stories.

So we invite very local grassroots charities who need a vehicle that can take them to difficult places. We invite them to submit video applications for a chance to win a Defender, and then we invite consumers to vote. Last year we had over half a million votes in a very grassroots approach, and this year we're looking [00:13:00] already to surpass that.

And that just gives us a wealth of content and opportunity to make a difference, and to really establish a platform that's authentic and organic for the brand. So I think those sort of higher touch, authentic, steps are important as a foundation, but then also just to really blast out building awareness through big traditional media has helped as well.

Damian: That seems like that, that's sped up, maybe, is it? All of you got sped up. 

Charlotte:  I mean, we truly last year we called it the year of ~Defender, Defender,~ Defender. No joke. It was ~kind~ of all systems go on defender. We were, it was really motivating and really exciting because we had such a clear vision of what we needed to do to differentiate and really break defender onto the scene.

So it was just a galvanizing kind of experience to just go all in on this one brand. This year we've got to be able to, walk and chew gum at the same time. We're back to focusing on multiples.

Ilyse: at those like cultural and like sporting events and having a big presence at some of those.

How much is that really part of your strategy and which, I guess, which cultural events have you really found yourself being?

Charlotte: Yeah. That's a very topical question for us. Experiential marketing, I think, gives us a way to really bring the brand to life in a way that transcends the product and makes people feel like they're part of a community. So a great example is Range Rover house, ~um,~ for Range Rover, that's now a global lifestyle platform.

We now do Range Rover houses everywhere from.

Damian: started

Ilyse: But

Charlotte: to Dubai, Cormier, you name it, but it started here in the U. S. in Monterey around, ~um,~

Damian: around Monterey.

Charlotte: Pebble Beach around Monterey car week.  and we do it every year in that location at that event, as well as,  Salt Lake City at, Park City, and a few other locations.

And basically, the idea is that we'll take over a private residence or building that [00:15:00] matches the design aesthetic of Range Rover and curate these exquisite, really luxury crafted experiences for our clients and prospects and partners. And we do that in partnership with other luxury brands to offer. For example, ~uh,~ rare spirit tastings, or a luxury facial, ~um,~ early access to a new fashion launch.

~Um,~ so we'll curate something different each time to keep it fresh. But the idea, it's been fun for the team to use as almost~ a,~ a filter or a thought exercise of, if Range Rover the brand were a house, What would it smell like? What would the furniture look like? What would you eat there? Who would be there?

you can kind of stretch your imagination to bring the brand to life in a way that, transcends the product. And we'll have a special product edition each time. That's also a part of the strategy where we'll release a limited count of a special Range Rover. That's only 17 of them are made. And it Retails for 350, 000 and only those [00:16:00] who are in person have a chance to, have the first look.

So that gives it sort of a press hook, ~um,~ and an extra kind of commercial reason to attend. But really the experience we hear more and more from our clients is that I feel like I'm part of a club, an exclusive society. ~You know,~ I'm a Range Rover person and that means that I get to do this and I get to meet and mingle with other life's leaders.

We call them in the Range Rover community. 

Damian: not every automaker can claim that they're able to kind of, like, create a club of like minded members. I know many would probably think that they can, but there's something special about JLR in that way. And I know we touched on this already, but one of those factors, I guess, that plays into the branding and the association is the British connection.

You mentioned the ad, but could you say a little bit more about that and how that is Something that you use or not use, especially in the U. S. market, which is what you're in charge.

Charlotte: [00:17:00] Yeah, such an interesting question for the U. S. market. ~Um,~ We have a couple of very current examples, I think, to this effect. One is that we have the blessing of having access to this curated collection of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, her cars, basically the classic Land Rover product that she either drove or was escorted in, throughout her regime.

And we have a beautiful collection of 10 of those vehicles that have been painted. painstakingly perfectly restored, and we debuted them globally at Pebble Beach this year. So it was the very first time that an SUV was displayed on the Pebble Beach Concourse, which I was surprised by. That was a really unique moment.

That was a really special thing. So we got a lot of press and breakthrough for that moment. And a lot of just fan activity. There are a lot of classic Land Rover Range Rover fans. So now we're taking those vehicles on tour and we'll have them at Rockefeller center with a very British themed experience.

It's all about the Royal family. So we'll have sort [00:18:00] of a tour. British, ~you know,~ other partners there and sort of a British feel. ~Um,~ but when you see the cars, ~you know,~ there's even these little touches like a special spot for the corgis to sit or the special hook for the Queen's handbag. ~Um,~ so that is a moment that's really making us stop and appreciate the British heritage and celebrate that in a more public way than we had recently.

but a funny story we were just catching up about earlier when I spoke about the Theo James commercial. It's called Velocity Blue is the campaign. We made some edits for a U. S. version of the TV spot, which will start airing  that essentially streamlined the story to be a little bit more simple, with a little more car shot, a little more action, which kind of captures a lot of, like, the U.

S. feedback. When we have our creative debates and discussions internally, most of the creative origination happens at the global headquarters in the U. K., It rolls out to the major markets. We give our feedback. There's a process that's probably very similar at other global companies, and the script tends to go something like the English version is a bit [00:19:00] more abstract, has a little more storytelling, has a lot going on, and the U.

S. wants to see Simple. Hit me with the logo. More car shots. Get to it. People are busy. There's a lot to break through and there's always  a cheeky debate about that. But, this time, they actually created a slightly different version for the U. S. Same spot, really, but with a key difference that, that simplified it and removed a scene in the middle that had, you know, an equestrian riding across the property you described.

And we just got the test results back and they were fascinating to see. We worked with Kantar to do sort of the initial assessment of how both the UK and the US audiences resonate with each of these two options. And we found that indeed we were correct about the US that the simplified spot without the equestrian, outperforms the original version for U.S. audiences, but fascinatingly, in the U. K., the reverse is true. So that gave us such an interesting, and frankly, a positive outcome that was, gets us [00:20:00] away from any kind of creative disagreements and is much more about honoring these market specific differences. And just isn't that interesting, that people have different expectations of advertising or different understanding of, the content of this particular spot.

So it's just an important reminder to global brands to keep the core insight true, but to make those tweaks to really optimize for each market.

Damian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. I mean, keep the horse. I say keep the horse.

Ilyse: I mean, I'm an American, right? And I think it's, I think the UK version is better,

Charlotte:  Ifyou know just keep it simple. Yeah, but it's so interesting, those insights like that fascinating. 

Charlotte: live for them. I mean, I think that's what marketing is all about is the consumer insight.

Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

Damian: And remember, 

Charlotte: especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really ~ build that love in people's [00:21:00] hearts. And it, for many people starts early.

Damian: I'm Damian.

Ilyse: I'm Ilyse

Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Gopuff’s Daniel Folkman joins The Current Podcast to explore the company's philosophy, what differentiates Gopuff’s retail media network and how the platform’s unique proposition could help it capture incremental retail media dollars.

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The beverage brand’s former CMO, which holds drinks like Aperol, breaks down why events like Coachella, the US Open and Cannes Film Festival are so important to its marketing strategy.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Julka Villa, the former Global CMO of Campari Group.

[00:00:11] Damian: Founded in 1860, Campari is a household name in the global spirits industry with a portfolio of over 50 brands across world markets.

[00:00:20] We're talking familiar names like Aperol, Sky Vodka, Wild Turkey Bourbon, and Courvoisier.

[00:00:27] Ilyse: Julka is a marketing veteran with over 25 years of experience in the alcoholic beverage and beauty industries. A specialist in consumer focused brands.

[00:00:37] Damian: Julka is responsible for the marketing vision, strategy, and execution of the Campari Group's brands.

[00:00:44] At the same time, she has a bird's eye view of the company's worldwide presence, coordinating teams based in Milan, Paris, and New York.

[00:00:52] Ilyse: We started by asking her about how she balances the Campari legacy with keeping its brands relevant for today's [00:01:00] consumers.

[00:01:02] Damian: So Campari has a rich heritage. The company is now 164 years old. How do you go about balancing its legacy, the preservation of its legacy while keeping the brand modern and relevant for today's consumers?

[00:01:18] Julka: I think that, if we go back to the roots of the Campari brand, about being

[00:01:23] bold, about being visionary about investing in arts, think about Europe, Italy in the second half of the 19th century. There were so, few brands really investing Campari was one of the first really interacting with artists

[00:01:42] and designers and giving them the freedom to, the brand in the way they saw it. if you look at how we started, you how we moved forward along our, our history. You can see that, the [00:02:00] twenties and thirties of last we start cooperating with cinema, really asking the people, working in the industries and producing the movies, postcards, producing, you know, designs and drawings for us.

[00:02:16] You can see that, fast forward, to the eighties. We start cooperating with one of the greatest filmmakers. In the world, Federico Fellini, that was a big fan of the Campari brand. He was drinking Campari and he decided to cooperate with us to produce an advertising for the brand. And Fellini was the first filmmaker we cooperated with. But then, we kept this partnership, for instance, with Paolo Sorrentino 2017. And I was personally You know, working with him, it was a fantastic experience to see an artist really bringing to life, the brand, [00:03:00] respecting the legacy, but at the same time, renovating, since you're asking me how a brand modern still loyal to its root, it was amazing to see how we could kept the daring, attitude of the brand alive. According to his own style. 

[00:03:20] Ilyse: Wow,that is super cool. so is pop culture still as important to the brand even today? 

[00:03:27] Julka: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, and this is so important for the Campari brand, but for many other brands part of our portfolio, just for you to know, we have more than 50 brands. in our portfolio, and if you’d like we can talk about some of them, but when it, comes to Campari, think about the fact that our partnership with arts, have been, more recently renovated in our, cooperation with the major film festivals, in the world. We, are [00:04:00] partners of the Cannes Film the Locarno, in Berlinale. weclosed the first, year of partnership with the Toronto Film that's definitely a modern way to the brand, extremely aspirational, but still to get in touch with so many consumers and possible advocates of the brand. One of the things we really care about is not just to communicate our brands, but to assure our consumer to consume our brands throughout the signature cocktails in the best way possible and definitely feel festival for us are a huge opportunity to provide liquid tulips, as we say, to our consumers current and future. 

[00:04:47] Damian: What's interesting is with these different brands, you're sort of talking about how they're valued differently in different markets. that's very interesting to me. How do you know and prioritize [00:05:00] which brands work best in which countries? 

[00:05:04] Julka: We have, well identified, what we call the global brands. The brands that should be built everywhere in the world. Of course step by step and respecting the life stages, the brand is in a specific geography. And definitely the one I mentioned so far, are global brands. And so also global priorities, for the company. And then, depending on the area of the world, the characteristics of the market and the consumers, each individual, operating company, can, compose, portfolio, to have the best performance on the market. But definitely there are priorities everybody to focus 

[00:05:51] Damian: if you think about the United States, is there a sort of priority?

[00:05:55] Julka: Yeah, 

[00:05:56] Damian: Leading brand here.

[00:05:58] Julka: definitely, [00:06:00] uh, the priority for the United our giant aperitif brands, such as Campari Aperol, Grand Manier, Wild Turkey, Espolon, and of course, the local team is really excited to rebuild the Courvoisier brand. always acquisition we have just finalized.

[00:06:21] Damian: Yeah, each of those brands has its own kind of, whole kind of narrative around them, I imagine. But I wanted to ask you actually a little bit about, The current moment that we're in, which we're seeing a kind of a lot of debate around alcohol versus no alcohol consumption, particularly when it comes to like Gen Z demographics. I mean, how do you think about and navigate these perception shifts? 

[00:06:47] Julka: That's a very that's a very interesting question. And of course, as you can imagine, we have been spending a lot of time and resources really to dig deep into these shift and [00:07:00] transformation in a way of our consumer ships. One thing that is not that evident to, to everybody is that differently from the past, there is a sort of coexistence of, people drinking alcoholic products and non alcoholic products, depending on the moment they are in, the people they are with, what they have to do the day after.

[00:07:23] And this kind of consciousness and, control on what to choose is even stronger in younger consumers as you were mentioned so they are more conscious they don't they are not you know afraid to make a choice that could be out of 

[00:07:43] their are pool of friends. Everybody's drinking something alcoholic There's no problem at all for one of them to say “Look tomorrow I have to wake up very early I have a very important day I prefer to, to opt for a choice, a non alcoholic choice.” So more than a counter position [00:08:00] today, we see the coexistence, of these kind of choices, which is quite interesting, honestly, also because it gives us the opportunity to be more, mindful and, intentional in developing also the part of our portfolio, which is non alcoholic. For instance, we have a product which is an extremely strong product in Italy and definitely in a phase of conquering of continental Europe is, the name of the product is Crodino and is definitely our non alcoholic, kind of spritz. is a product that was invented and launched in the market, in 1965.

[00:08:39] So this is a little bit a testament, to the personality of the company, wanting really to push boundaries. And actually we are preparing the launch of these fantastic product also in the U S, that we plan for next year. 

[00:08:54] Ilyse: So it sounds like Campari really anticipated this trend of non alcoholic [00:09:00] beverages in a sense. 

[00:09:02] Julka: Yeah, that's, that's correct. That's correct. 

[00:09:05] Damian: I'm just curious on that point, you know, as a marketer, you must get lots of data back in terms of like, who's drinking what, maybe by generation, maybe by geography even. I'm interested to know, do you kind of look at that in terms of strategizing and find the discrete markets? 

[00:09:24] Julka: even if, with the passing of the years, what we, really is of people. So demographics are not, gender or age brackets are not the main elements we look for because what really counts. Today is the mindset and the attitude of people, for instance, if I think about a product like Aperol with these with its signature cocktail, Aperol can see across generations drinking this product and across age brackets is the mindset.

[00:09:57] And you would be amazed how people approaching Aperol [00:10:00] Spritz, enjoying Aperol Spritz, they really have in common, the way they appreciate life and what they are looking for in that specific moment. Either they are, 25 or 60. So there are also, a number of cross generational, alcoholic beverage experiences, and so the way we look at data is really about the motivation and the attitude of people when they are about to make a choice. 

[00:10:27] Ilyse: Yeah, that kind of, shift towards mindset over demographics probably helps a lot when it comes to just I guess prioritizing channels for the brand and where to reach those audiences because I know in a lot of the times like Millennials and Gen Zers are in like social media and usually that's not an option when it comes to alcohol brands, is, so is the brand finding other channels to be just as effective, in reaching that kind of mindset that it's [00:11:00] after.

[00:11:00] Julka: when, I think a strong, distinctive characteristic Of our marketing and activation strategies, really investing very seriously in, in events, because definitely there's a lot of will among consumers of all ages, really to leave, events, in person really experience, on their, skin, much more than in the past.

[00:11:24] and then we amplify, if you want, through social media, those events. But, a big part of our investment. is really, put on organizing, these kind of events. When we, when it comes to the U. S., think about Coachella, which is, more than a music festival, is a lifestyle festival, as we all know.

[00:11:43] Think about the U. S. Open. uh, but also if we go on the other side of the world, in the APAC region, think about, The Australian Open, which is for us a, opportunity to reach so many consumers. about [00:12:00] hundreds of thousands live offering our best signature cocktail in our, fantastic lounger and then we can definitely amplify this content on a number of social media where. alcoholic beverage can, have a direct relationship, with their consumers. So for us, it's always a mix. we really believe that we have winning products, very straightforward drinking strategy, and that's why we care so these to life in real life for we don't see this business as happening just, just virtually. Definitely. 

[00:12:42] How do you kind of maintain and sort of keep tabs, as it were, on people who are loyal to the brands that you market?

[00:12:52] definitely over the yearsWe invested and we improved, our, CRM, capacity, so [00:13:00] throughout, social media and massively through events, we gather as much as possible information about our consumers so that, we can definitely keep them, up to date. On our, yearly, program, but also we can establish a more direct dialogue.

[00:13:18] Sometimes we consult them, a part of them for new projects. we listen to them, ask them questions about, trends, want to know more and I think that, especially when it comes to a lab important.

[00:13:39] Feel part of a feel, really listen to is something as important as enjoying your favorite, brand and your

[00:13:50] Damian: And what's interesting to me is I was thinking about this because about, maybe 12 years ago, I have a friend from Venice who lives in New York and we went to a [00:14:00] restaurant and she ordered an Aperol and at that, point it wasn't very, nobody really knew much about it here.

[00:14:06] And since then, of course, it's huge. It's like a probably one of the most popular, cocktails around. I was just at the U. S. Open in the summer and I could see, your your

[00:14:16] plaza there with Aperol everywhere. I guess it was, there's a sponsor, a partnership 

[00:14:20] Julka: Mm hmm. 

[00:14:21] Damian: But my question is, how did you could you walk us through how you, built that awareness from, that moment, however many years ago when it wasn't such a big, obviously big in Venice, she said it was the Venetian drink.

[00:14:34] So I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

[00:14:39] Julka: yes, I am. 10, 12 years ago, not only in the U. S., but in many other places outside Europe, definitely it was not established. you know, staple it is to die. and at the very beginning, we really faced, some very basic, difficulties. I have to say, it was not easy, to start [00:15:00] talking about, a signature cocktail that, needed, a bottle of Prosecco to be open, to be prepared because.

[00:15:07] You know, if you are familiar with sparkly wines, the problem with it is that if you open it and you use just a little part and then you keep the bottle for a couple of days, the carbonation will just, yes, go away. So it was really. a very precise, consistent, and stubborn work of education.

[00:15:28] There's just one certainty about education, which is that, you know, when you started that you will never know when you will finish. And actually it's a never ending story in a way. So we, in the past we put, and we keep putting a lot of, effort and an investment in educating the trade the bartenders bar owners But also the final consumers because at the end if the final consumer knows

[00:15:52] the best way to prepare an upper spritz They will be your advocate and it happened to me so many times in the past [00:16:00] when I was receiving at the table in upper spritz that was not preparing the way It should have been, I was going back to the bar and I was saying there's something wrong with my cocktail.

[00:16:13] it's a double, a double direction 

[00:16:16] Julka: Yeah, 

[00:16:18] efforts. And, Also, a very important part is, what we call, the oil spill approach. What does it mean? We start with the city, a major city, we start with the specific neighbors. and key on trade outlets in this neighbor.

[00:16:39] We build a relationship of partnership. We invest on these venues and we create the phenomenon of the cocktail and then we expand. So distribution and presence comes just

[00:16:52] after having started trend with a very high level, of the serve in a smaller [00:17:00] number of venues.

[00:17:01] This, has been the approach in the U. S. and in every other part of the world. You mentioned Venice, which is the place where the brand really, started being known and appreciated and, recognized as, the champion of aperitif. But the phenomenon of Aperol Spritz started in Venice, expanded to the Veneto region, which is the region of Venice, and then expanded Milan and from Milan to the rest of Italy.

[00:17:28] So the oil spill approach, as we call it, has always been, front and center of the strategy, of, And it's building. 

[00:17:38] Ilyse: So interesting. when you think of Campari brands, it also sorts of implies Like a level of sophistication. in a sense, are marketing just drinks or is it something more, I don't know, like lifestyle? 

[00:17:53] Julka: definitely. I think that,our brands are starting from, The most important ones really [00:18:00] stand for a certain lifestyle. you think about campari, it really represents the Milan. And, the lifestyle of the city. If you, think about aperol, you're talking about a more democratic sort of brand, really more casual. welcome. and, So they,

[00:18:21] reflect a way of living and today even more important. If you think about the trend of escapism, traveling without traveling. I need a break. I need a moment for myself of real enjoyment with my friends.

[00:18:36] brands like this, and they are signature cocktail, let's say Aperol Spritz for Aperol, Negroni, for instance, for Campari makes you really full for half hour, one hour you're spending with your friends in another place. So they really stand for a way of living for a place and for a moment in life where you really, recharge your batteries and, [00:19:00] you dedicate really a true moment to yourself. 

[00:19:03] Julka: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:05] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:08] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:15] Damian: Cairns. And remember, 

[00:19:16] Julka: we really believe that we have winning products, and that's why we care so these to life we don't see this business as happening just virtually. 

[00:19:29] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:19:30] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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