The Big Impression

Chuck E. Cheese's Melissa McLeanas joins hosts Damian Fowler and Ilyse Liffreing on The Current Podcast to discuss how Chuck E. Cheese is leveraging its iconic IP for the streaming era, what advertisers are excited about and more.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler (00:00):

I'm Damian Fowler

Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing,

Damian Fowler (00:02):

And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):

This week we're thrilled to be joined by Melissa McLeanas, Vice President of Global Media Licensing and Entertainment at Chuck E. Cheese.

Damian Fowler (00:18):

For people who grew up in the us, Chuck E. Cheese means childhood birthday parties. It's long been a go-to destination for pizza games and the giant mouse that knows every kid's name.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:29):

In short, it's a pop culture icon with over 500 worldwide venues. But under Melissa's leadership, the brand is leveling up by launching the CEC Media Network in partnership with programmatic platform future. Today,

Damian Fowler (00:42):

It's a big move that signals a shift from just a physical play space to a full on entertainment platform, think digital storytelling in store screens, branded content and advertising that actually fits into the family experience.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:57):

We're going to jump in and talk about why in venue media might just be the next big driver of customer loyalty and growth.

Damian Fowler (01:07):

Chuck E. Cheese is such a nostalgic brand, especially in the United States, but here you are launching a full media network, which is a kind of big new chapter for you. Can you walk us through the vision and the strategy behind the CEC Media network and what is bringing it to life?

Melissa McLeanas (01:26):

Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me. It is an incredibly exciting time at CEC Entertainment. Then Chuck Cheese, I would say it's a bold new chapter for the company and the Media network is really just a piece of that. The brand has been going through an incredible transformation over the last few years, and really at the heart of that is the vision to establish this brand as a global leader in entertainment. Now, I say that, but it's really reestablished the brand in entertainment. Chuck E. Cheese was born in entertainment. I don't know if you know, but the E in Chuck E. Cheese stands for entertainment. And really when you think back to where we started, we were a leader and really established the category of EAT entertainment. And as that space has evolved and family entertainment centers have really taken that center stage, we've continued to be a leader and an innovator in that space.

(02:14):

But a few years ago, I would say we probably hit a wall and it was a little bit tired. The bones were good as they would say, but it was really time for a reset and bringing a new leadership team to the forefront with a new background and experience in entertainment. We established several different strategic objectives, one of them being the division that I lead, and that's media licensing and entertainment. So really very simply put, the mission is to really drive incremental value and revenue for the company in a new way. So all US locations, we've invested over 350 million back into the business, a capital investment, and I'm happy to say that right now at this point we've completed the US all US locations, so just under 500, no small feat, and we're about to finish our own Canada locations as well. And what this looks like is cosmetically update to the interior and the exterior, a revamp of menu, all new games, and that entertainment package now features a large video wall. And then of course our character program.

Damian Fowler (03:16):

That's a lot right there. It's almost like you've had a complete perception shift in terms of what you're doing. It sounds like you are a channel in and of your own right and media channel. You mentioned out of home, but there's also CTV on all those points. This is a kind of multistream content strategy. And could you just talk a little bit more about how that will ultimately reach all of these consumers and how it'll deepen engagement, I guess, for families who go to all these different venues in the US and around the world?

Melissa McLeanas (03:50):

So yeah, that's a great point. So I guess let me step back and actually talk about what that content looks like. Within our fund centers, we have entertainment programming, let's call it a 90 minute loop, and it consists primarily of entertainment, content, family friendly entertainment content. Of all these initiatives, obviously the first and foremost most important thing for us is to make sure that we're delivering an amazing experience for our guests. And so that content must do that. It has to be relevant for our families, it has to be engaging, and it really has to convey everything that our brand stands for. So that's a mix of our own original content. So I talked about that, the library. And so we continue to create new content and then we pull from our library of content. So we really look for things that are a little young, but it has to be appealing to an older guest.

(04:37):

At the same time, there can be aspirational content, so maybe some of our 10 year olds and 12 year olds are there with younger siblings, and then you got your parents. So there's a lot of opportunity there. The other thing that digital screens in this update to programming does is it allows us to do regular seasonal updates. And I think that's also really important, especially as we're growing programs like our membership program, our past program, we've got some repeat visitation, we're consistently updating and keeping that fresh throughout the year. Now as part of that, there's a lot of partner opportunities. And so for our entertainment partners, like I said, you can get the latest clips from your newest release for some of the newer content creators. We've got an active captive audience sitting right there paying attention to those screens, and we've created an environment where they're tuning into those screens. And so bringing our characters, since we do all of that content ourselves and working with other content creators to create some co-branded content, there's a lot of different ways for partners to really be a part of that entertainment experience.

Ilyse Liffreing (05:38):

Now I know it's early days too, but perhaps you can talk about some of those partnerships that you have going on with needy buyers and national advertisers and then how important the media network is to Chuck E. Cheese's broader business evolution.

Melissa McLeanas (05:54):

Absolutely. I'll actually take that moment to do a quick and talk more specifically on the advertising opportunity. I think a lot of what we're doing with the content and the characters is incredibly exciting, but it's also a really exciting time in the digital out of home and out of home space. So if you look at other venue operators and retailers, they're debuting these owned media networks. And so we've really took a page out of their book and we said, Hey, we've got this updated experience, we have this traffic. How do we really bring this to partners in a big way? And so on the, I would say the tech solutions side, we've had some really strong relationships with Panasonic so that we've got media players in advertising solutions that are going to support the various types of advertisers locally, regionally, nationally. And then we most recently have a relationship with Vista Media, so we were able to integrate their supply side platform directly into that CMS.

(06:44):

So that gives us access to a wide array of advertisers, and they're coming straight through programmatic, so turnkey solution for those who are buying programmatic space. So we're seeing a lot of advertisers come through there. And then we've got some more strategic relationships in the entertainment space. Kids BOP is one of those. They've been a partner for many, many years. And in addition to some of the entertainment content, they've really leveraged these screens to advertise tours to localize and talk specifically to upcoming tours at a specific venue ahead of that. We've worked with the Harlem Globetrotters to do the same, and then we have a various CPG toy, again, family appropriate, parent appropriate that are really taking advantage of those screens. And then of course we're talking out of home, but I don't want to forget too that we also announced a partnership with Future Today.

(07:33):

And so in addition to having this opportunity around content in our venues, we also have this content online. So we've had a lot of this on YouTube and YouTube kids. We actually started putting our content there in 2012 and have been doing so in a more meaningful way in the past few years. And with this new relationship with Future Today, a leader in the CTV space, not only are we getting content on their Happy Kids channel and their network alongside the co melons and the Paw trolls, but in the future we're working towards launching our own streaming network. So Chuck E. Cheese branded Fast Channel, so ad supported, but again, leaning into the content and the IP and engaging those guests and those fans and then offering that opportunity to brand safe and family friendly advertisers.

Ilyse Liffreing (08:17):

I know Chuck E. Cheese has traditionally been mostly about the physical experience before all of this. I remember going there as a kid, my dad brought us there all the time growing up, and obviously that part of the business is not dying down at all. I'm curious how many screens you have at each of the 500 plus venues that will be part of this network.

Melissa McLeanas (08:41):

So every location has a video wall, and that's going to be the focal point of when you walk into Chuck E. Cheese and it's incredibly important. You really can see that almost anywhere in most locations. Every one of our locations is unique, they're like children. They vary in size and layout, but really that video wall is huge. And then screens and the number of screens is going to depend on that layout and how big the location is. So it can be anywhere from six to 15 to 18 in some of our larger locations. So it's done strategically to make sure that there's visibility no matter where you are. And then audio isn't tied to those screens, so audio is just piped uniformly throughout the entire locations.

Ilyse Liffreing (09:21):

Besides those giant screens, are there any other ways you guys are blending that physical presence within the new digital touchpoints that you're bringing?

Melissa McLeanas (09:30):

So like I said, the character program is, I mean the epitome of the live physical experience. And so we really try to find a balance between how we take the digital parts of our brand and our entertainment and balance that with the interactive and the physical. So when the character, when Chucky comes out, whether it be for a birthday or for a dance, there's also supporting content on the screen that really help families follow along, be able to follow and interact with their parents and their friends and all of that. So we want to make sure it's on an interactive dance floor. So there's a lot of different ways to bring that to life. We also just recently launched a STEAM program, and so that is rooted in the media that you see on those screens, but then as part of that curriculum, those kids go off into the game rooms and they're playing with the games and they're doing all the different tasks that they've learned.

(10:21):

We did that in partnership with stem.org and then just digitally throughout the locations, our menu boards are all digital now. We've done some tremendous and deep upgrades in terms of innovation and technology, so no more tickets, which some people get sad about because that visual of having that bucket of tickets feels so iconic. But etickets are far more efficient for families that are trying to get through the price counter and out the door. So we've got Etic, we've got Play Pass, no more tokens, the menu boards, the games. We're really leaning into digital. It makes us more efficient when we need to make changes. We think about testing menu items in certain local and regional rollouts that's all supported digitally. It's far easier to make those updates on the backside than it is to roll out new point of sale and printed materials. And so we're looking for those digital opportunities throughout

Ilyse Liffreing (11:11):

Life. Things are certainly changing.

Damian Fowler (11:12):

They really are. Let's talk a little bit about some of the takeaways from all of these innovations. Now, let's say you're a family, you've been exposed to the video wall and the games room and you go home. How is this exposure being measured across the network, if you like?

Melissa McLeanas (11:28):

Yes, feedback is everything. We actually have a really active fan base and we do have guests who are reaching out to give us feedback. We have an in-house insights team and we have regular surveys, and then they're asking questions across every element of Chuck E. Cheese because we want to make sure that we're understanding as we update and introduce new exactly what's working, what's not and what can be better and happy to, the screens in the entertainment continues to have a really positive score. A very high guest are seeing it, they're tuning in and they love the entertainment. And so we'll continue to watch that. And when it comes to the advertising campaigns, from a measurement perspective, we're working with companies like Place their AI and an IMP purview to measure the impressions through our door as well as impressions against our screens, both being well-recognized auditors, if you will, in that space.

(12:20):

We don't sell tickets, so that's important to make sure that when we do these campaigns we can accurately say this is how many folks we're actually exposed to those screens. And then as we continue to work with our partners, and then I think this is something you'll see, especially in the digital out of home space, it's constantly evolving. And so for us it's really important to work with partners on their campaigns and understand those KPIs because we are a unique platform and the guests are engaging with these screens maybe differently than they might and screens out in a different venue. And so we want to make sure that the content that we're delivering, one, again, great guest experience and it's appropriate for our families, but two, it's achieving what our partners are looking to do with these campaigns.

Ilyse Liffreing (13:04):

So you've spoken about how Chuck E. Cheese as a brand spans generations. How do you ensure that the content and messaging then stay relevant to today's kids while still honoring the brand's legacy from the past?

Melissa McLeanas (13:18):

It's an amazing gift to have a brand and a character that has touched almost five decades, and that comes with great responsibility first and foremost, at the heart of what we are still, where a kid can be a kid. So as we continue to innovate and evolve for these families, we never lose sight of that. We are a kid first space. So while our content could be developed with co-viewing in mind and there's some Easter eggs that maybe parents will understand, but it's just fun silly songs for kids, we want to make sure that kids still own their space. Chuck E. Cheese is a place for kids. Our parents obviously need to enjoy their space too. And so in addition to how that content comes to life within our fund centers, we take a lot of opportunity to find extensions outside our four walls that pay homage to the rich legacy that this brand has.

(14:11):

So licensing is an important part of the strategic objective of growing this brand and increasing its value and entertainment. And so we've really grown our license program over the past five years. We've got just over 35 licensees and we've been able to really segment our brand across these decades and offer a classic Chuckie for those who know the OG seventies, eighties, Chuckie with the bowler hat. And we've got our retro Chuckie who's skater and he's the nineties, two thousands, and we offer that up to teen and young adult audiences in various spaces that make sense. We've done a few other things like we've saved our animatronics and in a few different locations, we started that in Northridge, California, wildly successful, lots of feedback there. And so we were able to extend that to four additional stores. And so those animatronics are going to live in those locations.

(15:02):

They're still fully remodeled, they're still on the media network, they still have all the new, but for fans that want to pilgrimage to see the original band in that format, those are available and we continue to look for opportunities like that. We've announced Chuck Arcade, it's an arcade space that's really geared towards Martine and adult, and there's some really fun touch points. Again, paying ho much to the legacy. And so we want to make sure that, again, our brand is a brand and we're going to take care of those kids and those families, but there's a lot of opportunity to really extend that and talk to the other generations of fans.

Ilyse Liffreing (15:36):

I certainly appreciate that. I remember Skater, Chuckie, myself, nineties

Melissa McLeanas (15:41):

Chucky, everybody has their Chuckie.

Ilyse Liffreing (15:42):

Oh yeah. I know it's early days still, but how has the feedback been so far from the brands that you guys are starting to approach about the network? Is there excitement, interest?

Melissa McLeanas (15:56):

I think a takeaway that is for brands and partners and even a lot of our guests is because just as you said, everyone has their Chuck E. Cheese and this is a brand that has such incredible awareness and strong attachment to a very specific memory and time of when you had your Chuck E. Cheese experience. As we're going through this remodel and introducing the median network, it's a bit of a surprise when they actually go in and they're like, oh my goodness, this is not the Chuck E. Cheese that I used to know. And we hear it from guests and it's why we really lean into reopening events when we remodel a location and then really make a splash in the local community. And I'm hearing that a lot from partners. It's incredibly positive once they see how their brand is coming to life on these screens and we're hosting lunch and learns with agencies, you have to see it to get it because that memory is so strong in so many people and we're doing things so differently. And so it's been really positive and it's been exciting, but it definitely is. It's a space where you've really got to lean in and say, oh, wait a second. You're right. This is incredible.

Damian Fowler (17:06):

We seem to be in a sort of almost, you mentioned the ip, but we seem to be in a bit of a golden age as it were, of brand storytelling and more and more brands leaning into sort of that owned media channel to tell their stories. How do you see this whole media network fitting into that general trend

Melissa McLeanas (17:23):

From a brand storytelling perspective? It's funny. We always make this differentiation. Our characters are part of our experience. We never look at them to tell the experience. And so as we debut all of these new channels for our content and open up to a larger audience, we have the opportunity to really dive into these characters, their personalities and invest in telling their story and in a deeper way. And so we've got so much content, but there's so many new formats that we are excited about long form formats, animation, publishing, and so much of that can be supported and come to life on these channels. But when we think about a storytelling opportunity from a character perspective, there's a great path forward to really get these beloved characters out there and to continue to build their world, their ecosystem, and not just in content. How do we take them outside the four walls? How do we create more experiences? We've taken the band out on tour, how do we do that in a bigger way? And I think these channels and this content is the beginning of a much bigger journey for the characters.

Damian Fowler (18:31):

Yeah, I imagine. Is there a movie in the works?

Melissa McLeanas (18:36):

No comment. No. In all serious, that's where we're going. That's where we're thinking for these characters. And so while nothing has been announced, I think we've been fairly vocal in the fact that that is what we would like to do and how we are making decisions on content and bringing on partners.

Ilyse Liffreing (18:55):

It's amazing. Looking even further ahead, if the movie doesn't happen, if the movie does happen

Melissa McLeanas (19:03):

When the movie happens,

Ilyse Liffreing (19:03):

When it happens,

Melissa McLeanas (19:04):

Exactly when the movie

Ilyse Liffreing (19:06):

Happens, I like it. It happens. What else do you see in terms of innovation, whether it's maybe gamified content, augmented reality, personalized experiences, is there anything else that you guys are hoping in the near future to evolve the Chuck E T's experience?

Melissa McLeanas (19:26):

Gaming is in our DNA. And so I mean we are the largest arcade operator in the world. We buy thousands and thousands of games. We've got 2 billion game plays a year. And so we're always looking and talking to different companies about how we can continue to innovate in that space. And so that's always on our radar. You've seen a change in even some of the games that have come through our doors, things like ar, you need to make sure that it's safe for our young kids, but we're always having those conversations and now that we've got more media driven experiences, there is opportunity to take that to the screens. And with the dance floor personalization, if you think about birthday and how important that is to our brand, personalization is something that we're always looking to do in a bigger way. So from tiering and offering different options to our parents who are booking parties, to giving something personal just to remind or say happy birthday to the kids and how we can do that with our characters and at scale is something that is starting to get more exciting as this technology evolves.

Ilyse Liffreing (20:34):

Amazing. Let's go into some of rapid fire questions now, some quick fun ones for you. So the first one here is actually about your background. You've held roles across licensing, entertainment and media. What would be one lesson from building these brand partnerships that served you especially well?

Melissa McLeanas (20:55):

Partnerships can be incredibly powerful and they can serve so many purposes. And I think right now in the industry, you're hearing the word collaboration a lot. And it's refreshing because I also think that if you look back a few decades, it was very rigid of this is the partnership, I need X, you get X, this is how we do it or we don't do it. And I think the openness and the receptiveness across all industries, entertainment, licensing, media of building something that is going to benefit both parties in a bigger way has really changed how a lot of these partnerships have come to life. And for us, and in this journey that we've been in, they've really been a huge benefit to us. And one telling our story, aligning with some of these best in class entertainment brands and putting Chuck E. Cheese in a conversation that frankly people weren't expecting. And as you said, I have been very fortunate to have worked with some amazing partners across my career and bring some of these different programs to life and building them around Chuck E. Cheese has been really fun.

Damian Fowler (22:02):

What other family or entertainment brand is doing something truly innovative in the media space that inspires you?

Melissa McLeanas (22:10):

So I'm a theme park nerd, admittedly because of my background, and this almost feels like a cop out, but it has been really exciting to watch Universal grow as a behemoth in this space and even their marketing and from a grassroots perspective of how they've been able to engage their fan base. It's just fun and it's exciting to watch someone in that space grow as they have. But all that said, what I think is even cooler in location-based entertainment is these snackable moments that are kind of emerging outside of these giant theme parks. I think in the beginning it was always like that can only happen if you're paying a high ticket price to go to a Universal or Disney. And now so many of the IP holders and the brands are bringing these really cool experiences to life outside of that, whether it be a mobile tour or a retail experience or maze that's themed for the season. And I think that's really elevating the space and it's giving a lot of us opportunity to activate in these ways that doesn't require a giant theme park build around it. And so I think that the location based entertainment and experiential space in general has been growing and being more creative over the past few years.

Ilyse Liffreing (23:22):

Do you have a favorite moment from launching the CEC Media network?

Melissa McLeanas (23:27):

I think something that I could really call out is the feedback from our operators. So when you work for a company that is really the life force is your field and your cast members and your operators on the ground. We've got some cast members and some managers that have been with us for over 30 years and they know this brand and they've been delivering this amazing experience and change is hard. So when this started testing in markets and we got not only good feedback, but outwardly positive feedback and managers were approaching me like, you know what you could do? I'm like, this is fantastic because not only are we updating the entertainment experience, we're delivering on all these new objectives, but we're bringing value to the team that's operating and they see this great opportunity to talk to their guests and to be more efficient. And so that was very satisfying and it made it all the better because they really are the ones that are doing the work on the ground and making sure that this brand is coming to the life in the best of ways.

Damian Fowler (24:27):

On that point, was there a personal moment that stands out that you've witnessed where the brand genuinely sort of moved you or surprised you in how it was being received?

Melissa McLeanas (24:38):

So yes, I mentioned this summer concert series, and I'll give you a little bit of context. So during the pandemic, we had to close a lot of locations and as we started to open them, we made the decision to keep Chucky outside the fun centers to our families. That message was that he was recording an album and we didn't realize that he was going to have to record a box set in the end, but when we did get to a place where we were getting comfortable to bring him back to our guests and it wasn't everywhere, we were trying to think of how best to do that. And again, this is still early for me and in my role at Chuck E. Cheese. And so we decided to, for the first time ever, create a fully choreographed scripted show, 30 minute show with our characters, took 'em out on the road, all free concerts, open air outside public parks so all guests could attend no matter where we were in the world in terms of what those restrictions looked like.

(25:33):

And it was just an amazing team building event. So it's all new music, upbeat, fun, I still have it on my playlist, but we have our birthday song as part of this concert and we do it under the guise of Does anyone have a birthday this year? Which is of course everyone. And if you're familiar with the Chuck E. Cheese birthday song, it's not just Happy Birthday, it's very specific to Chuck E. Cheese. And as it started, every single guest was up and singing along to the lyrics and dancing the food truck vendors, the parents, everybody knew this song. And from a moment that was needed, it was incredible. But from a brand perspective, that's really powerful and that's really something special. And so that really stood out in my mind of like, wow, this is something, we really got something. So that would definitely be it. And if you don't know the birthday song,

Ilyse Liffreing (26:25):

I do know we can practice it after do birthday song.

Damian Fowler (26:28):

We should play this podcast out with a birthday song soon.

Ilyse Liffreing (26:30):

Yes, we should.

Damian Fowler (26:32):

Well, first off, Melissa was so enthusiastic about this new brand, this new entertainment network that the company's launching. I almost couldn't keep up with the amount of innovation the brand is putting out.

Ilyse Liffreing (26:45):

So much, so much has happen is

Damian Fowler (26:45):

Incredible. But I feel like there were a couple of bits there where she almost gave us some news. She talked about Chuck E. Cheese streaming platform potentially on the horizon, and then we sort of joked about this, but Chuck E. Cheese movie. But in an era where IP is everything and we're thinking of Barbie, why not?

Ilyse Liffreing (27:05):

Yeah, no, there's so much value in it for other advertisers too, when they're building this media network across their 500 plus venues in the US and internationally, that's a lot of screens and advertisers want to be with kids and with their parents especially.

Damian Fowler (27:24):

Another thought that was interesting to me was the way she talked with the way Melissa talked about the digital out of home and Chuckie, she's venues being almost an extension of that channel that is on the up and up really, and especially when it comes to programmatic media. So that was also something that I found intriguing.

Ilyse Liffreing (27:44):

It's also nice to know that they're doing a good job of blending their physical footprint with the digital and keeping everything we like about Chuck E. Cheese still alive in some way. Even those who remember the brand from the seventies, eighties, nineties, check that mouse is still there.

Damian Fowler (28:05):

Yeah, well, I can't say I grew up with it, but I know you did. So it's reassuring that that nostalgia is still alive.

Ilyse Liffreing (28:11):

And maybe for my birthday next year, are you going to invite me? Yes, Damian, you're invited. Thanks. And that's

Damian Fowler (28:18):

It for this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing (28:21):

This series is produced by Molton Hart. The current podcasts theme is by Love and caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

Damian Fowler (28:29):

And remember,

Melissa McLeanas (28:30):

Our characters are part of our experience. We never look at them to tell the experience. I'm Damian and I'm my, we'll

Ilyse Liffreing (28:38):

See you.

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Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian (00:01):

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse (00:02):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian (00:03):

This week we're really excited to talk with Dustin Hinz, the Chief marketing officer of Firestone Walker Brewing the craft brewery based in California.

Ilyse (00:12):

Dustin has been the chief marketer at Firestone for almost six years. He's an award-winning marketer who knows how to build a culturally relevant brand.

Damian (00:21):

Also, he's a musician and he helped build Guitar Center into that powerhouse brand It is today. He worked there for 17 years and you can ask any guitarist about Guitar Center and its Importance. And then he was an Ernie Ball music man, which is famous for its guitar strings, which I love. I'm curious though, Ilyse, do you play the guitar?

Ilyse (00:40):

I wish, but Okay. Damian, we're here to talk beer and how to market it in a crowded marketplace. So let's begin. So Dustin, can you tell us a little bit about Firestone and the brand 805? It seems it really has a West Coast vibe just like me. I'm from the West coast so I can see that. I feel it.

Dustin (01:04):

Firestone Walker is the culmination of David Walker and Adam Firestone's love for beer. And they met back in the nineties when David fell in love with Adam's sister and there's great stories about that. And then they found they had this mutual love for beer and the central coast of California. David being an expat in British and Adam being a Californian, they founded this amazing brewery on the central coast and really focused on just a few craft beers. DBA was their first beer and then Union Jack and there was a lot of craft was sort of an early movement. And then back in 2012 they stumbled upon this idea of 8 0 5 and 8 0 5 is the area code for the big swath of the Central coast, a big piece of California all the way down to Ventura County where actually I grew up. We like to say that the goal of 8 0 5 is to be the most globally recognized, regionally available beer in the world.

Ilyse (02:03):

Very cool. But there are a lot of beers out there, even craft beers. What would you say is the point of differentiation? Is it the taste? Is it the West coast vibes? What would you say?

Dustin (02:15):

I think the biggest point of differentiation in beer is the brand position. Obviously great brand position and great marketing is not going to solve a lousy product, so you got to have amazing product and we're trying to focus on being odds of the evens and really investing in our own legend and trying to stand for something and be the alternative choice. And thankfully beer is so big and there's so much opportunity that you can carve out a pretty nice size of the pie for yourself if you want to focus on being the alternative premium choice.

Damian (02:43):

One of things that you just said about the importance of marketing and how marketing can drive the business seems key to this. Is there anything that you could point us to that you'd say, this was the moment where I created brand awareness above and beyond or something like that?

Dustin (03:05):

The first one with the traditional 8 0 5, the black can I was very lucky to inherit five and a half years ago a slogan called Properly Chill and Properly Chill sort of was the slogan for this idea that life on the central coast was a little different, right? And what we did last year and then going into this year, and I believe that this is going to come out right around this new campaign is going to drop, is this idea telling the story of our brand through the lens of our customer. We have this amazing roster of ambassadors, we call them Authentico and eight oh five Authentico and Professional surfers, motocross Riders, boxers, MMA, fighters, artists, tattoo artists, you name it, it spans the spectrum. There's over 50 of them and they kind of cover every single different customer group that we believe the brand represents and we tell the story of that brand through those consumers or through those athletes.

(04:06):

And then a couple other examples were what we did was Summer of Cervesa when we launched the extension of 8 0 5, the first extension after 10 years, which was a Mexican lagger themed version of 8 0 5 with a little bit of lime in it. And the idea at the time was when you were looking at the marketplace, Mexican laggers were really on the rise. Corona obviously as an incredible background. Modelo has now at this point become the number one brand in the US surpassing Bud Light and Consumers were definitely reaching for this idea of sort of an escapism beer. So when we launched the campaign with summer survey, so we realized that we had to do something to stand out and create some differentiation between 8 0 5 blonde and 8 0 5. And so the 8 0 5 cervesa campaign was the first time we ever showed the product in color. 8 0 5 has been black and white since its inception in 2012. And with 8 0 5 Cervesa was the first time we ever put the product in color in the advertising. And it was a game changer. I mean, we sales went from moderately successful to up 20% pretty consistently because we were able to create that differentiation in the idea that Cervesa was a light and refreshing product.

Damian (05:24):

Wow, I love that just by adding color. But it is interesting that you started out in black and white as a kind of campaign. Why black and white?

Dustin (05:32):

I think they realized they needed to do something different to stand out back then. And trust me, it is a conversation pretty regularly when we're working on new ideas of, there is a lot of consternation around the idea of how do we maintain the brand identity and not stray from it because we want to be timeless, not timely. So we're very, very focused on, hey, every decision we make is going to have an impact a decade from now, two decades from now. Because the greatest brands in beer are multi-generational.

Ilyse (06:02):

Totally. And I know we talked about this earlier because it can be really difficult to market alcohol products, especially on platforms like social media where there are age roadblocks. What are the channels that you decided to lean into for these campaigns and are there any that you're experimenting with now?

Dustin (06:24):

I'd say at-home is a good third of our total media investment and then a big shift to TV about two years ago. And with connected TV platforms continuing to become more robust, it's made it a hell of a lot easier for us to get more geo-targeted because I think that spray and prey doesn't work when you're a regional brand and you want to get really focused on zip codes and you want to try to drive measurement. And so connected TV has been huge for us and whether that's through our partnerships with the World Surf League or we're just doing a sports our brand, what we know though is that from all of our consumer data is that a huge percentage of our customers are sports fans. They watch a lot of football, they watch a lot of baseball. So what we do is we take our brand to those channels and through partnerships like ESPN, we've been able to really connect with consumers and drive some really nice measurable lift for the brand. You're watching a sports game and you're going to see beer brand X or insurance brand X with an athlete for that sport. And then you see our spot, which might have a bull rider in it or a surfer or a motocross rider, and it just stands out

Ilyse (07:33):

With your brands embrace of sports and kind of that measurement piece of CTV, you must love that more live sports are coming into the connected TV space.

Dustin (07:47):

I think the beneficiaries of this sort of democratization of content and it's making things more competitive. So as you see the Disney Network, Hulu, ESPN, or you go to YouTube TV and some of the other platforms that are continuing to open up, it makes it really easy to be competitive in the space or to at least have a voice. I think our team's been really good at identifying those opportunities, proving the efficacy of those investments so that we can continue to do them.

Damian (08:15):

You hinted at something about the seasonality of marketing and I'm kind of interested in that as a marketer of beer and I guess in lots of ways, as you said, you're kind of marketing lifestyle, you have associations with surfers and athletes and the summer. I'm curious how often you think about the need to refresh campaigns and how do you keep them relevant to the culture cultural moment?

Dustin (08:42):

Yeah, great question. You definitely have to, in beer, especially with the retail partners, you need to be seasonal. I spent the first 20 years of my career on the music side as a retailer, so I know what retailers want. They're going to want, Hey, it's Memorial Day, I'm going to have a display in my store for a week and a half, two weeks. It better fit the theme of Memorial Day. Now how you do that, you can do that without just stars and stripes. There's other ways to do that, but the I idea of escapism and patriotism to a degree, but when you look at the retail calendar, there are a myriad, there's like 16 major temples that you have to win. So our team is definitely working to make sure that we're taking the overall thematic of our brand and pulling that down into those temples.

(09:33):

And that fits the larger brand story because obviously you don't want to have 16 different TV spots throughout the year. So we'll have several different campaigns throughout the year, but then those drop down into Cinco de Mayo or Day of the Dead or 4th of July. So you have to, depending on the channel that we're in, yeah, some stuff has to be far more granular to make sure that it's serving the need of that retailer or the desire of that retailer, and as well as making sure that we're still maintaining the brand identity that we want to have. While everybody else does Super Bowl and does football, we're doing the World Surf League pipeline, which is the Super Bowl of surf, so is the official beer of the WSL when everyone's doing Super Bowl, we're doing surfing.

Damian (10:10):

Now, Dustin listeners can't see this, but I know behind you you've got some fantastic vintage guitars there, which I wanted. I know that you are a musician and before you worked at 8 0 5, you worked as a marketer in the music industry, including for Ernie Ball, music Man and Guitar Center. And I'm kind of interested in the kind of synergies that you might have found there between marketing to musicians and the kind of now the position you're in now marketing beer.

Dustin (10:42):

It's really sort of a story of serendipity. I got my first guitar when I was 14 years old and it sort of changed my life. Music just bordered became this obsession and it's what I wanted to do, started a band and typical story, didn't go to college, was like college, I'm going to be in a band, mom, what are you talking about? So I begged her at the time she was working, she was the executive assistant to the CEO O of Guitar Center back in the nineties when they were still a small company. And I said, Hey, just give me a job in the mail room or something, and so just give me the summer. Let me prove to you that my band can be in great before I have to go to college. And so she got me a job in the mail room and said, three months, that's it. And three months turned into 18 years.

(11:35):

I worked my way up to vice president and that typical age old story. But what I found really early on when I got there was, and I remember there was a moment, I was there a couple of months working in the mail room, excited in the mail room is right next to the marketing department and there was a great VP of marketing. It was Mike. I still talk to him to this day, 20 something years later. He always says, his joke is, you're the best hire I ever made. But I remember looking at the marketing materials and saying to the guys like, Hey, we're not marketing to, I'm the customer. Why don't you talk to me? We should change the way that we talk to the customers because this doesn't make sense. I'm the customer, I don't want to read this. So I pitched him some ideas and he's like, yeah, that's a great idea. You want a job in marketing?

(12:18):

And I went from $4 and 50 cents an hour to $9 an hour. I thought it was rich. I'm 18 years old. And I started that journey. And I think what I realized really early on, and what was great about Guitar Center was that our mission was to mint new customers. We realized early on through a great visionary, CEO, we had Marty Albertson was that we had to make sure that we were creating musicians. There wasn't a lot of 'em. When you think about the population of the world, it think it's like 2% our musicians. So if you want to continue to sell guitars and you want to continue to sell instruments, you've got to inspire people to want to play music. So our mission became taking this great feeling and propelling that and perpetuating it to get more people excited about it. And we became a platform for artists and creating, over the course of my 20 years, I got to create TV shows and write documentaries and make slashes documentary.

(13:09):

I got to things that you would only dream of when you were a kid to make art with other artists that inspired the world. And I think the common thread through all of that was that great marketing, great brands stand for something clear and enduring. I'm very, very lucky that as a songwriter and a musician early on, that I found this extension of that creative process to sort of keep me inspired. I mean marketing in a lot of ways, your writers, your songwriters, your creatives, and you get to do that while also tackling, for me at least the necessary evil of lift analysis, analytics and

Damian (13:46):

Some of those things that come with the business. Our musicians have to be marketers these days anyway. Right.

Ilyse (13:50):

That's very true. And that 2%, we at least have two in our miss because Damian's a musician as well. But yeah, it's so interesting that you talk about that area of the population and in some ways it's almost harder to reach those very niche communities.

Dustin (14:09):

Yeah, there's that great quote. I don't know if it came from Nike, it was probably Nike, but what's that speak to the core loud enough that everyone else can hear? I mean, I think that's been a mission of music. I mean, remember the indie movement or the punk movement, it was like everybody didn't want to be mainstream, and it was just like, do this thing, own your audience. And then what happens is the cool thing, everybody wants to sit at the cool table. Everybody wants to be a part of the movement, but you can't market to the people that want to be in the movement. You have to market to the people who have started the movement, and then what happens is then you can maintain some credibility.

Damian (14:40):

I'm just curious to get your high level perspective on what do you think needs to change in the ad marketplace today, which as we all know, is very much digital programmatic.

Dustin (14:52):

I think product placement right now, especially on podcasts, is just incredibly oversaturated. And I understand that when you've got a major budget and you're moving money around and you're trying to do everything you can to drive eyeballs, but I have this conversation all the time with the agency. I'm not interested in the most amount of eyeballs. I want the right ones. And when I look at a podcast and I just see energy drinks on tables and then right behind it, I see a Starbucks cup and the cans aren't open, I just think there's too much of that going on. To me, there's not real connections. So I think one of the things for me that's just unfortunate is because of the amount of money and the amount of ad money that's available and it's all moving from different platforms, is that sort of approach has created, I think a really high level of high bar for entry into some of these categories.

(15:40):

The expectations of money that are tied to some of these opportunities are so overblown. So I think that to me, that's always been something that I've always struggled with that I always hope is going to work itself out and well. I think that you go through ebbs and flows, especially when times get tough, people will cut back on their marketing, they cut back on sponsorships, and that's when opportunities open up. And if you're smart and you manage your money effectively and you have dollars, when other brands are carving back, that's when you can start to find really interesting opportunities. But for me, yeah, influencer marketing, product seating, I've never been excited about it. One of the things that we say all the time at Firestone Walker is keep the main thing, the main thing. And by doing that, we put on ourselves from chasing too many squirrels in the backyard.

Ilyse (16:30):

I love that.

Dustin (16:31):

Yeah.

Ilyse (16:32):

Is there anything you are obsessed with figuring out right now?

Dustin (16:35):

I mean, we sell millions of cases of beer and our first party data. We've done an amazing job of our first party data, emails building customer attention, but there is this weird thing with social, and I'm just obsessed with trying to figure out what it is. And our agency's got great relationships with meta and these platforms, and nobody, one can seem to give me the answer of what is happening on the backend within the algorithms that is preventing some of the biggest brands in the world with tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of consumers. This ability to create real audiences on these platforms, because we live in a world now where all content is consumed through just a few channels. When you think about YouTube, whatever happens with TikTok, Instagram Meta, et cetera, there's a only handful of channels where a majority of all of the content consumption is taking place.

(17:31):

And if every single one of those has a toll booth between you and your customer, but then there's also a filter that is preventing you from really building your audience. I'm obsessed with trying to figure that out. If we do believe in this idea of the zeitgeist and that culture matters and that brands stand for something clear and enduring, the world is going to continue and down this digital path. And sure, point of sale and billboards and TV advertising are great ways to tell people about your brand, but it is the way to get your arms around them. It's going to be on these platforms and the ones that are coming. And I think that's what the industry as a whole is always the industry as a whole struggles with this. And I think it can be dangerous in the sense that you over obsess it and then you put too much money into like, well, I got to grow followers, or I got to grow my audience. Versus like, well, I just got to drive, drive affinity in purchase intent. And so that's, I think the balance of how do we focus on stuffing the funnel, creating a tremendous amount of energy for our brands. The right partnerships is omnipresent in the right cultural segments that we want to be in, but at the same time try to figure out how we can expand our tent and get more people into it.

Damian (18:46):

Wow. Ali, I love that conversation with Dustin. I mean, it's not every day you get to talk to somebody who's a musician and a marketer and who's able to tie both of those things together so well as he did. But what was the standout thing to you that he said?

Ilyse (19:02):

I think what really stuck out was kind of playing how Firestone and Dustin kind of play that fine line of keeping consistent, but also not being too rigid and trying new things with customers. I know with 9,000 plus breweries, it's kind of crazy that there's so much competition to stick out and beer brands have to stick out. But what he said was really interesting about staying consistent with an agency and measurement and really trying to find, making sure that what you're making art essentially actually makes sense.

Damian (19:45):

Yeah, I agree with you and I feel like one of the most powerful things he said to me was when he was at Guitar Center, when he was there for 17 years, his vision was to mint new musicians and identifying that only 2% of the world population, 2%, I think he said musicians. So you have to inspire more people to want to create music. And taking that sort of core philosophy and applying it to his current role at 8 0 5 seems to be something that's driving him as a mission driven marketer. I think as he said, great brands have to stand for something enduring. So in that regard, I think he's really smart, and to do this at this cultural moment where there's so much fragmentation, that is one way to help him clear through all the clutter and stay focused.

Ilyse (20:30):

Yeah, I think one of my favorite quotes too was like keep the main thing, the main thing, and that keeps us basically from chasing those squirrels.

Damian (20:44):

That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. I'm Ilyse, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

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Dow Jones CMO Sherry Weiss reveals the marketing strategy behind growing subscription businesses for publications like The Wall Street Journal. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler (00:00):

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian Fowler (00:02):

And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):

This week we're delighted to talk with Sherry Weiss, the CMO of Dow Jones.

Damian Fowler (00:14):

And Sherry's responsible for growing Dow Jones' subscription business across the publisher's. Numerous business titles, which include the Wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, and Investors Business Daily,

Ilyse Liffreing (00:26):

But that's not all. Sherry also heads up the brand and enterprise go-to-market strategy for Dow Jones Research and Newswire services like Tiba

Damian Fowler (00:35):

In an era where publishers are facing many challenges to their business models. From the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai, Sherry gets into how the publishers answering back by building a subscription strategy.

Ilyse Liffreing (00:48):

We start off by talking about the Wall Street Journal's latest campaign.

Sherry Weiss (00:56):

So it's your business. It's not only our new campaign, but our new brand platform, which we launched in June of last year. A little bit about the history of how we got into this new platform. So our previous platform was Trust Your Decisions and I joined the organization about two and a half years ago. One of the first things that the team and I did at that point in time is really dive deeply into understanding our current and then our future growth audience needs. And when we were going through that research, one of the things that came out was the idea around trust and how that's table stakes

(01:33):

And what our audience are saying that's a given and kind of don't tell us to trust you, we will determine that. And so we realized that there was this need to speak a little bit differently to our future audiences and also to crack the code on what Wall Street Journal is. So Wall Street Journal is a storied brand, it's well known, but oftentimes we were seeing with our growth audiences that people did not think the journal applied to them. And in all of our customer research, what we were beginning to piece together is the folks that read the journal and folks that we believe are our editorial content applies to. They have a lot of similarities underlying them. They're all ambitious, they want to be knowledgeable, they're quite intellectual, but they may be in different stages of their career. And so part of what we needed to do with this brand platform was help bridge the gap is to explain to our future audiences why the journalist for them.

(02:31):

And the other thing that's interesting about this campaign is that it's the first time in quite some time that we truly leaned into the journalism, our actual core product. And in that campaign we brought out specific articles into the actual campaign and balance those articles between things that you would expect the journal to write about and things that you would not expect us to write about. And a really good example is that we had an article around folks that were becoming lifelong renters and those were decisions that they were making. And so one of our headlines leaned into that. Another one was around make hotdog economics your business when you talk about food and inflation. And that was showing up in a hot dog truck. And the great thing there is it killed two burns with one stone because we were able to go loud with an awareness campaign, but it also enabled us a way to drive back to sampling. And in all of our campaigns we had QR codes, it actually drove back to the original article and that was quite successful.

Damian Fowler (03:38):

That's really fascinating. One of the things before we get into what you learned from this campaign, how did you identify where those potentially net new audiences readers were coming from? You say you have this core group of people who are interested in business, but then you have people who are kind of adjacent to it but also interested in business. I'm just curious, how did you think about that and how did you sort of build that into your strategy?

Sherry Weiss (04:06):

Sure. So everything we do is data-based and customer reader first. So as part of this re-looking at our platform, we did a deep audience study and within that audience study we went out obviously across the market around news readers who are willing to pay and really started having deep conversations, both qualitative as well as quantitative research into what people are looking for and also finding common threads around attitudes and life point of views. And what we found was we have a really core group of readers tried and true folks that you would expect over index more into investing and working on Wall Street and more of your traditional business folks, but business expands so much more than that. And what we were finding is that there were a deep growth area where there are people who are outside of what we would say are our traditional professions, marketing, consulting, government actually that have, they are interested in the type of content that we write, they just may not be aware that we're writing it. And again, as I mentioned, we're also looking at our audiences that it's not so much around your profession or where you live, but the attitudes in which you hold in common, right? So your desire to be well-informed, your ambition to get ahead in whatever way you want to get ahead, they all have that in common. And so that's really how we started crafting the growth audiences. And then obviously within that with the research we gleaned a lot of information on where they're engaging and that's where we would go out to find in marketing. Interesting.

Ilyse Liffreing (05:51):

Now you said the first phase of the campaign started in June and I remember going to the Wall Street Journal house in Canon, seeing that all over the place there, what other areas did the campaign come to life in that aspect besides maybe the articles?

Sherry Weiss (06:09):

Sure. It's interesting because again, all of everything really in the campaign, everything that we put forth had an article that was underlying it. But the cool thing about it is that you could do what you would call traditional marketing. So display on social out of home, we did a Penn Station takeover, but you could also, we were able to leverage this campaign to make it more experiential as well. So as you mentioned, we had the Wall Street Journal, cafe A can. If anybody listening was in there, you probably saw there were things like our salt and pepper shakers and on there had QR codes that had, I can't remember the article that we raised there, but it drove back to an article that had something to do with salt and pepper on the menu. Everything had a article that was associated to it. And so there was an article that we were featuring Make Sleep, divorce Your Business, and we were able to put that above a space that was a mattress store, make EV economics your business, and we would take out space in charging stations so you could take the content that we write about, which is so embedded in every day, build it into the context in which a potential reader is engaging and that actually cracks the code, right?

(07:24):

It's your business. It's so much more than stock trading or what's happening in banking these days.

Ilyse Liffreing (07:31):

Yeah, it's everywhere.

Sherry Weiss (07:32):

Yeah, exactly.

Damian Fowler (07:33):

And you're sort of changing perception

Sherry Weiss (07:35):

Of

Damian Fowler (07:35):

The paper.

Sherry Weiss (07:36):

Yes, definitely.

Damian Fowler (07:37):

And now obviously the Wall Street Journal is one of several publications that you manage. I guess it's maybe the vanguard of the Dow Jones Business publications, but you have many other prestige publications like Barron's Investors Business Daily, which is probably more niche for people actually on the front lines of business. When you think about the whole portfolio, are there crossover audiences or are they distinct audiences?

Sherry Weiss (08:04):

I mean, the short answer is yes and yes. So the nice thing is, as you had mentioned, we have a four premier consumer publications, wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, IBD, all of them in one way, shape or form is journalism with a business lens. But each one provides a different take on an issue or a topic and serves a different purpose. And you mentioned IBD, right? IBD is really focused on helping people make decisions on trading in growth stocks. And it's not just about information but tools that investors can use. And so we believe that there are, again, taking an audience first approach, there are audiences that fit squarely into each one of those publications but may not overlap. But we also believe that there are audiences that would find value across all of our publications. And interestingly enough, we had done some testing into this over the last two years, really more so from a marketing offer.

(09:10):

What happens if you bring somebody on with an introductory subscription offer to a variety of our publications? And we found that number one, people were opting into it at really high take rates. We also found that once they were on this proposition, people were reading actively across our publications were very engaged and increased engagement over standalone and retain better. And so we've now made this into a true proposition WSJ Plus, and this is just the beginning, but basically we target very specific audiences who are investors who are hungry for knowledge from all different angles, and WSJ Plus is a platform that enables them to do that.

Damian Fowler (09:56):

What was the kind of goal there? In a way,

Sherry Weiss (09:58):

The main goal is to provide additional value and deep in relationships with our subscribers and frankly our future subscribers. But we know across our ecosystem that we have news and information. And then if you think about Dow Jones overall and news data information and analysis to help people, whether it be you as a person outside the office or in a professional capacity to make decisions. And so the idea around the plus offering is how do you open that up so that your readers are able to find additional ways to find value with you

Ilyse Liffreing (10:36):

When you have so many publications and you are trying to grow a business, that first party data that you get from subscribers is very important. How is the Wall Street Journal and other publications under Dell Jones, how are you guys using that first party data to perhaps reach new subscribers and then I guess carry on that same messaging across publications?

Sherry Weiss (11:08):

Sure. Prior to joining Dow Jones about two and a half years ago, I come out of consumer financial services most of my time in the credit card industry. And for anybody who has worked in credit cards or financial services knows that everything that you do, all of your strategies are seeped in deep, deep data payment companies know a lot about you. And so one of the first things that I did when I came in was really to take a look at how we can start supercharging our strategy to not make it a holistic strategy actually or a monolithic strategy, but really start building out personalized ways of engaging with our prospects and our readers. First from a segment perspective, but eventually we want to get to a way of engaging via a of one what worked in media a few years ago is not going to be the secret sauce that drives growth for the future. And so leaning into unlocking our data and analytics is important. Over the last two years, we've built out an internal analytics team really focused on building out predictive models to help drive our strategies forward. And that obviously is all built off of our first party data. A really interesting one that is in beta right now when you talk about this is more around engaging and retaining our customer base is being able to predict customer behavior based on market fluctuations

(12:34):

And really being able to take not only our first party data but indices and market research sets and pull together into models to say, okay, what flags are there four weeks out from a market shift that could help us determine whether or not we need to think about our retention offers more aggressively or whether we should be leaning into paid media a little bit more to start acquiring customers on certain products that perhaps are more sensitive to market shifts.

Ilyse Liffreing (13:06):

That's so fascinating. So basically if the market is down, say like today if the market is down, you can predict that you'll have more readers that day.

Sherry Weiss (13:20):

Well, it could be one of a few things, right? In some respects, and it's interesting because how you apply that model across each one of our products, and as I mentioned it's not just publications but there's tools as well. How you tweak that model to help you make decisions is going to be different based on how someone uses each one of your products. So in some cases, if you have a product that's more geared towards trading and you're seeing swings, let's say the market is swinging upwards, you really want to lean in during that period of time to start acquiring customers because there's an uptick in interest. Or to your point, if you are seeing volatility in the market and they're coming to the journal or they're coming to market watch to understand that that also is a time to really start thinking about is your engagement strategy different? Are you willing to shift again from an acquisition perspective, pull forward media that you would've been spending later in the year? Things like that secret.

Ilyse Liffreing (14:16):

How are you guys able to predict that though four weeks in Advance?

Sherry Weiss (14:19):

That secret secret? That's the secret sauce. Okay. Secret sauce, that's the secret sauce you don't have to tell us,

Damian Fowler (14:25):

But it's fair to say that the marketing campaigns are much faster now and more

(14:30):

Iterative based on current events

Sherry Weiss (14:33):

Very much. And I think that is the other area that we've focused on When I first came in, if you are in marketing in a news organization and you cannot respond at the speed of news, then you are not appropriately supporting your newsrooms. And when we first came in, we did an end-to-end assessment of how quickly we would be able to get creative into market based on breaking news. And it was days and we're now at a place where it's hours and in some case less than an hour. So being able to react that quickly, and it's not just about creative development, but making sure you have your audience targeting in place, you're able to turn things on. It obviously was a mix of people, process and tooling. So yes, we are able to react very quickly.

Damian Fowler (15:20):

That brings us to a question we might call a bigger picture question, but so in terms of the marketing channels that enable you to react to these conditions, where do you see value? Where do you look?

Sherry Weiss (15:34):

Well, let's put it this way. We're looking daily and constantly evaluating where we're putting investment in and where we're showing up. And it's also very product specific. So there's certain products that are quite niche that you're leaning into, really niche influencer strategy for instance. And then there's other that you want to go broad. So obviously traditional channels, paid search, paid social, that all still is very important for us. Organic traffic is still a quite substantial part of our conversion strategy. And so how you show up organically in the ecosystem, if you think about on social media and other outlets, really important. The brand campaign is actually quite important because what we're really trying to do is the referral ecosystem evolves and it perhaps is, well, it's not perhaps is being disrupted. What makes somebody wake up in the morning and want to type in Wall Street journal.com for instance. That's where the brand campaign is really important and why we're leaning into brand marketing more so than we ever have before.

Ilyse Liffreing (16:39):

Now at the same time, publishers are facing multiple challenges to their business models, what's new there, but the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai. What has been the most helpful way to stay true to the business during this time of constant change?

Sherry Weiss (16:57):

What just popped into my mind is the quote, my dad always to this day always says, but always told us when we were kids. And it's this idea around adversity breeds opportunity. And so you can think about adversity or changing landscape or changing business models and you can be fearful about it and you can try to push back or you can lean into it. And I think what we're doing is we're leaning into it. The journal as a business has historically leaned into it. So interesting fact. We were the first ones to put up a paywall many moons ago and that was a time of disruption and we're going into a time of disruption now. The first thing is while you're thinking through, alright, what new channels do we want to go into? What brings people to us directly? How do we start building relationships with people in new and different ways?

(17:51):

You also have to lean into and feel really clear about, but who are you and not change that? And so the focus on, we have a storied history about delivering quality journalism through the lens of business that is what we're leaning into. And then trying to find our growth audiences where they are is where we need to crack the code. And what worked before is not going to work in the future. So test and learn is huge. And I know that sounds like a buzzword, but as I mentioned, we, it's not only about predictive analytics that we've introduced, but being okay with rapid testing and figuring out what's working and what's not and then switching quickly to either scale what's working or to stop what's not and everything needs to be measured.

Ilyse Liffreing (18:39):

We've noted and written about recently how certain social media channels have been inconsistent with promoting news, changing their own strategy with that. Is this something that you have to constantly think about and stay ahead of?

Sherry Weiss (18:57):

We can't sit back and rely on refers that traditionally sent traffic our ways. It's not just social media. A lot of places that were traditional referrals channels are really, their business models are looking to keep people on platform and social media. It will continue and continues to play a really important role both not only from a paid perspective but from a organic and amplification perspective. That's where our current and future audiences are engaging. And I think what we need to think about is cracking the code in two ways from an owned and operated perspective. How do we get people to come to us directly, but then also in these off platform channels, how do we show up differently? We've also made a lot of inroads into organic content on TikTok and I think the next place that we have to think about is we're engaging with our future audiences in those areas. How do we then think about new and different monetization models in order to capitalize on that?

Ilyse Liffreing (20:01):

What are you obsessed with figuring out right now?

Sherry Weiss (20:06):

The one thing, and it's going to sound cliche but it is on everybody's mind, is how to start capitalizing on the advent of gen ai. And AI has been around for a long time. We are using a machine learning at Dow Jones most. I talked about predictive modeling earlier, but really the next step on this is how do we start applying generative ai? And when I talk about obsessed with trying to crack the code, it's twofold. How do we leverage this technology to build more value added consumer facing propositions, but also how do we leverage it internally? How do we leverage to start helping us drive our marketing at scale? For instance, how do we leverage it to really start enhancing our predictive models? And so it's something top of mind, it's something that I'm actively learning about. It's something I want my team to really deeply engage in and it's here to stay. So cracking the code on that is important.

Damian Fowler (21:10):

Is marketing a science or an art?

Sherry Weiss (21:13):

Both marketing is both an art and a science. And if you miss each side of it, you miss the secret sauce of it. You can lean too far in each direction. Obviously I would say that I'm more of a science first marketer. That's where I lean first. But if you miss the human element, you can go way far into data and you miss the human element, the way you connect with people, your marketing is not going to resonate, it's not going to land. And it's interesting because I'm not going to be able to state the exact fact, but there was something that I saw at a speaking event the other day where it was saying, when you think about your testing agenda, you can actually make more progress in your creative testing than in your pricing. And that was an interesting thing because that says something about the art of marketing. How do you connect with your audience? And so to that point, although I just said that I tend to be more of a science marketer, most of my decisions are how I figure out how to engage with audiences is everything is based on what the customer is saying first. It's an outside in versus what we are assuming we should be saying to our end users.

Damian Fowler (22:27):

What would you do if you had an unlimited marketing budget?

Sherry Weiss (22:32):

Oh my goodness. All right, let me get the list out. It's like Santa came a hundred, a hundred cafes

(22:39):

A hundred. Well, no, interestingly enough, I guess that's where I'm going to lean into if I had an unlimited marketing budget. When you're trying to determine where to place your next dollar and you're talking about the mix of art and science, for better or for worse, you lean towards the science. And so your next dollar is always going to be you have to make the trade off of, am I going to place my next dollar in something that I know will return? Why? Or am I going to place my next dollar into something that's really unique, different, may not be measurable, but is breakthrough? And if I had an unlimited marketing budget, there would be Wall Street Journal cafes all over the place. Really being able to lean into really interesting different types of experiential events at scale could be really fun.

Ilyse Liffreing (23:30):

That was a great conversation with Sherry. Damien, what were some of your takeaways?

Damian Fowler (23:34):

Yeah, I love hearing from people who are marketing publications probably because I come from a background of journalism and it's always fascinating to hear, talk about how to build and find new readers, which is basically the big question for publications everywhere. When you've got a brand like the Wall Street Journal though, which is really a premium newspaper, probably the Vanguard newspaper in the United States along with the New York Times. It's interesting to hear Sherry talk about how she's trying to find those readers that might not be obvious beyond the business community and how she's using marketing to broaden that reach along with the tagline, which is it's your business. Business is everybody's business. And I think we increasingly realize that and it's smart of her to build a marketing campaign around that concept.

Ilyse Liffreing (24:24):

No, I know what you mean Damien. And what really interested me too is, and I wish she would've revealed her secret sauce here, but it's fascinating how they're able to predict their audience four weeks ahead of time and to be so on the cutting edge with news. And as she spoke about they had to reinvent the wheel a little bit and how they can cover certain news events with their team, being able to predict those insights of how their audience is going to react so quickly ahead of time is so powerful.

Damian Fowler (25:01):

I think that was really a great point. And the fact that marketing moves so much faster now based on what's happening. And especially for a publication like The Journal, which is built around market fluctuations and obviously has a huge political and business readership. So it's really important for them to be able to react to what's happening. And that was a big takeaway for me, talking about the speed at which now marketing moves, which is not built on six month or annual campaigns, but much more rapidly iterating as it were, which is that word we all use in the marketplace.

Ilyse Liffreing (25:38):

No, that's very true and that's what I'm going to think about the next time I go to Wall Street Journal Cafe as well.

Damian Fowler (25:47):

That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

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