The Big Impression

Josef Najm, director of programmatic and partnerships at Thomson Reuters, and Mibbie Plouvier, head of global programmatic strategy at SAS, join The Current Podcast to describe how their partnership has evolved and how trust plays an important part in that evolution. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing, and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week, we're excited to be joined by two guests. Joseph Najim, Director of Programmatic and Partnerships at Reuters, And Mivi Plouvier, Head of Programmatic at software company SAS.

[00:00:17] Ilyse: Together we'll explore the publisher and advertiser dynamic at a time when some advertisers remain cautious about appearing alongside certain types of news. The business model for news is under pressure and publishers are looking for better ways to monetize their journalism with effective ads. We'll dive into why things may be changing for the better.

[00:00:36] Recent research indicates that it's safer for brands to advertise next to quality journalism, regardless of the news topic. Reuters, in 1851 and owned by Thomson Reuters, is one of the world's largest publishers, with journalists in over 200 locations writing in 16 different languages. SAS sits at the intersection of data [00:01:00] and AI.

[00:01:01] Delivering analytical insights to brands. We kick off things with Joseph and Miby describing how they first met and how their partnership has evolved since then.

[00:01:11] Ilyse: It's so great to have you here today. First off, how did you first meet and how would you describe how your partnership has evolved? 

[00:01:20] Joseph: Great. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. maybe and I met about five years ago when I joined Reuters coming from the buy side, I was just leaving a stint at Diageo and, coming in as the programmatic sales specialist at the time, maybe was working in Paris and she was, I believe, the global programmatic lead and everyone was just like, “Hey, programmatic guy, this is a programmatic person.”

[00:01:41] I think you should connect with them. And at the time, we were doing some business with SAS, or maybe a little bit. And hearing that she was from Paris. and also knowing that I had worked at L'Oreal. I wanted to connect with her from like a French connection perspective and also knowing that she was American.

[00:01:55] So I shot her an email reaching out and asking her some questions like how things were going. 

[00:02:00] Mibbie: It was a fun connection. because I was new to Paris. And Joseph reached out and was telling me all these fun, French antidotes of how Parisians and French people are more like coconuts, and Americans are more like peaches. And it was a great analogy to start the intro, but we've had a great relationship

[00:02:17] Joseph has been resilient and calling on our business and the more in trust we built up, the greater the partnership has become and we've been able to do some really great things together. 

[00:02:27] Ilyse: guess it is like a pretty small world programmatic, 

[00:02:33] Ilyse: so it's no secret that the publishing industry is under quite a lot of pressure along with the eventual death of cookies. One issue publishers continue to come across are brands avoiding advertising on news for concerns around brand safety.

[00:02:49] Now, these concerns have been challenged as of a May study from Stagwell that found that even ads next to hot button topics performed as effectively as those appearing next to [00:03:00] news, like sports and entertainment. Can you give us some context around what you're seeing on this topic? 

[00:03:07] Joseph: Yes, this is a very important topic, and being at Reuters now for five years, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of different brand briefs and questions that come in around

[00:03:17] how can we partner together? And in 2020, this kind of all came to a head when COVID and the pandemic took place. So what we found was, a lot of advertisers turn to the solutions that they have around. Advertising, ad tech platform, blocking tools like keyword lists, pre bid filters, monitoring tags, blocking tags, blocking words like COVID, China, Wuhan.

[00:03:38] And then it just precipitated after that. and almost The spiral effect because the news cycle and

[00:03:42] the realities of that was happening continued. So, just in the year of 2020, so much happened. whether it was George Floyd's murder, the beginning of the Black Lives Matter. movement. the, the election, as well. A lot of people forget the election took place there, too. And now, four years later, history is continuing in this really [00:04:00] real time. Just to kind of put it into a global perspective, two thirds of the world's democratic populations are going to the polls. this year, not just the U S and a lot of people just think it's the U S, but really important countries like Taiwan, for example. and we're covering that. and we're also covering two global world conflicts. Israel and Gaza, as well as Russia and Ukraine.

[00:04:18] when we're doing all this, it costs a lot of money and it's important to find brand partners that are willing, to support trusted journalism and at the same time understand that when they're partnering with news publishers, that audience that they're reaching is a really important audience, It's an attentive audience, an audience that's willing to engage.

[00:04:37] I always like to think back, like, when the pandemic happened, where did we all turn? We turned to the news. And I'm really appreciative of a lot of these studies that are coming out with Stagwell, for example, but even going back to 2020, released this Trust HALO report, 84 percent of consumers had a positive or neutral impact when they saw an ad adjacent to a trusted source. And I fast forward to now and folks are talking about Gen z audience and trying to reach [00:05:00] that audience. Gen Z cares about the facts. They care about trust. So, finding partnership with SAS and being able to present this audience and showing that you can have ad adjacency next to the hard news and reach that audience has been leading to successful business outcomes for both of us.

[00:05:14] And It's really been great partnering with Mibbie on those activations.

[00:05:18] Mibbie: and then from our perspective, I'd say I think it's easy to find comfort in blocking certain words. but. What we like to do is partner with trusted news sources and award winning news sources because we know that no matter what news they're reporting upon, our brand is going to be safe around it. And we know that we're

[00:05:35] going to be okay, no matter what the news is. And I think with the current news cycle and how constant it is, you could almost just go down a rabbit hole of blocking everything. So from our perspective, it was let's partner with key publishers, that we can trust and then we don't have to worry as much about trying to continue to block things or worry about. Being somewhere we don't want to be. 

[00:05:55] Ilyse: and on that point though, even like the bad news,

[00:05:59] I don't think it, [00:06:00] it doesn't hurt your brand as research has shown. and brands are still very fearful about that. Was that your original, like, hesitancy in advertising or? It Okay. 

[00:06:12] Mibbie: it's, we take the security and knowing how, brands how we're going to be around the right kind of content and Reuters reports on the news in a very fair way. So for us, even if it's bad news, we're okay with being there.

[00:06:26] it took a while to get there internally, but that was several years ago and I think it was around COVID when everybody was a little fearful of the news, but we're very confident with the partners we have. and for us, it was also how can we make these things happen programmatically. Because

[00:06:43] we can buy things a lot easier. and more smoothly if it's through our platforms. So that was, Reuters was very good about helping us out in that sense too. Yeah, 

[00:06:51] Joseph: I think, it goes back to the consultative approach.

[00:06:53] when I first presented to SAS and to maybe, in team. It was always with the thinking of, okay, [00:07:00] culture. Just like Reuters. We have a history. They have a history of innovation too. And at the end of the day, as maybe said, the fairness of how we go to report that unbiased nature, it really creates, and fosters an environment for 

[00:07:12] Trust with the audience, trust with the content. So when they have a trusted message, that they're really trying to deliver to that audience. we just knew that it was going to be a perfect synergy between the two. so I really never had. concerns, but I will say, and this is the importance of kind of stepping in and having that partnership with that publisher partner, that news publisher partner.

[00:07:30] If the situation gets a little bit out of control, from a hard news perspective, it's important for the news publisher to step in and say, hey, maybe we don't run this campaign right now, but we will come back and we'll make sure that the creative message is appropriate to what's taking place, but also at the same time, hey, we're going to, we're going to protect your brand.

[00:07:47] And I think in some cases, we're you know, it happened, for example, with Applebee's, running against the CNN, ad when, I think it was Russia and ukraine, combat was starting to happen.

[00:07:57] And, what came from it was some rhetoric [00:08:00] around, you know, we don't want to be around that content. and why, could that have been shut off? And I don't know the full schema behind it, but I really do think it wasn't the intention for CNN to run an Applebee's ads there.

[00:08:11] But that ad and went to supporting journalism and supporting that, that moment in time that if people a lot of people were looking at, 

[00:08:16] And my hope is, like, a brand like Apple Lee's, we'll find a way to come back to running on news again and not say, Hey, we're gonna shut it down and continue not running there. 

[00:08:25] Ilyse: saying, hey, we're to shut it down and continue. Yeah, I do think 

[00:08:47] Joseph: Yeah, so I do think there's a little bit of foundation of a fear strategy here, and I think that strategy unfortunately comes from, the fear of the screenshot,

[00:08:57] for example, and what that might lead to. [00:09:00] and, when it comes to exclusion lists, I think one of the funniest things I recently heard was a certain agency had an exclusion list Or their exclusion list, which kind of speaks to a problem in itself, where if you're applying words like people's beliefs, religions, communities, whole countries, et cetera, you really run into a situation where Is that appropriate?

[00:09:21] For your media campaigns, and your paid campaigns? to me, understanding that brand, and like doing my research when I go to pitch, it's recognizing what is in your keywords doesn't really reflect what your brand is trying to promote from a communication style as well. but I think maybe he has some specifics if you want to share from your side.

[00:09:38] we've been chatting about this a little bit, but they're pretty good. They're relevant to the French culture as well.

[00:09:43] Mibbie: well. Yeah, I think it's, lose a lot of context when you block keywords. And at some point, when Notre Dame. you know, was on fire and burning. A lot of people were blocking Paris.

[00:09:54] They were blocking fire. and now if you don't go back and revisit those lists and you continue to just have.

[00:09:59] these long [00:10:00] lists of blocks, you're missing out on Olympics coverage. With the Olympic torch, with the flame, with even the Paris coverage. So there's a lot that if it's not completely maintained, I think it's a hard kind of road to continue to go down because you, there's a never ending way to go if you keep blocking and blocking.

[00:10:17] So I think that's where you should go more, the curvation route. And that's the route we've gone is to. Curate our sites, curate who we're working with, and so then it's not as fearful, and you don't get that email to your CEO, which had happened, and it comes down to you, if you're at the screenshot, and then you have to say, that's a good point.

[00:10:33] Why are we here? Why are we running there?

[00:10:34] so it, sometimes it says hard lessons that make you rethink how you're blocking things. and the approach you're going to have

[00:10:41] Joseph: want to bring up AI here because, in a sense, I feel like potentially it could help eventually with, something like keywords. Maybe with marketers, maybe it's a chance to like, actually use it to run through keywords really fast and see if it's, actually gonna [00:11:00] actually with terms that aren't like several years outdated or something like that.

[00:11:05] Ilyse: what do you think? 

[00:11:07] Mibbie: I think it's only going to help our business and help speed the process to your point of going through those massive lists and staying active with what's constantly changing like the news. So I only think it's going to benefit us, but I think AI in general across the programmatic landscape is going to be a benefit instead of more of a hindrance that some people might think it might be.

[00:11:29] Joseph: Yeah, a AI is unique because there's generative AI and then there's AI. And I think in the programmatic space, we've been playing with AI a lot. like Machine learning, algorithms, the ability to, target the person, right place, right time, right message,

[00:11:41] that's all AI. And I think the tools that publishers are now getting, that maybe they weren't always accustomed to having, or the ease of being able to, check things, or recategorize things or work with their product leads to say, Hey, what is happening here in the bid stream? That's going to come out more to make a cleaner path, [00:12:00] and make sure that the buy side is really saying, Okay, let's triage it, maybe.

[00:12:03] Let's say, okay, if this is Reuters, and a trusted brand, and good to go. But okay, next word that pops up, Okay, maybe it's related to this, but because Reuters, still okay. I don't think those solutions exist.

[00:12:14] They're A little bit more potential blankets, but with AI you have to understand the risks too. And I think in a gen AI world, working at a news publisher, it's also really important to understand like I sit on the commercial side.

[00:12:25] So my uses of AI and generative AI are going to, be different than the editorial team.

[00:12:30] And it's important to make sure this is anyone that's on the new side like what is your AI and gen AI policies because you don't want there to be conflict with your editorial team and commercial team. But you do want to promote. innovation at the same time. 

[00:12:43] Ilyse: now I want to talk a little bit about the campaign that you actually ran, and that you pushed through all that hesitancy for, and then maybe if you could share some of the results you saw from that. 

[00:12:56] Mibbie: so we've been doing a lot of great testing with Reuters, [00:13:00] so the baseball campaign was a great example because we owned all their coverage of the World Series, which was great for us as a brand to know that. We're there all the way through the end, and it was a good series. But then we've also been doing some testing with Reuters with linked in. So they've been contextually making videos for us around a I specifically in our ads are surrounding that, and we've seen, massive increase in our click through rate, exceeding benchmarks, great view through completion. So it's partnering, in very smart ways And being able to test together that I think we've seen. a lot of great success. and we're also running on their YouTube. channel. So another great way to keep our ads in a brand safe environment on Reuters YouTube instead of all over the place how YouTube can be. So that was a new strategy that we tested together as well.

[00:13:45] And we also had audio with Alexa and Google Home. So, when you ask Google Home what the news is for the day. our ad would run before that. And that was a great, Great way of just getting our brand out there and getting some more awareness of who we are. And The great point of that too is [00:14:00] we were able to buy that programmatically. So a lot of these things that necessarily some publishers wouldn't let us buy programmatically. we were able to run with Reuters programmatically, so that made things a lot more smoother.

[00:14:10] Joseph: Because of Miby's ad tech stack, we have the ability to front the costs via the impression delivery and the cost per day for an activation. And then, as a publisher, behind The scenes, you just have to work. through your finance team to how you're going to fund those projects and support the teams. But The LinkedIn Wire program. It's a really great success story of how you can combine really great content from a news publisher, and this is all editorial content. So nothing was created bespoke It was just around the same coverage that our editorial teams would be doing for AI. The message that maybe was trying to deliver and SAS team was trying to deliver plus the LinkedIn data that was tied to it as well And All of those things, and I think this also comes into Challenging your partner is It came to a pretty high CPM and costs, but It's the old adage, of kind of, what you get what you pay for And I think the return and what they [00:15:00] saw in the engagement And how it compared was really great. And What I also like about being at a publisher for five years but also having this ad tech background is the way I approach a partner like sass is, hey, we're omni channel. Like you think omni channel and, infinite places, but you could work with one partner in an omni channel approach, and this is very much that and some. So, it's been really great partnering with Vivian sass to really test these different things and be innovative. It's fun. 

[00:15:24] Ilyse: finally, to both of you, are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund, oh, Are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund journalism at this moment?

[00:15:42] Joseph: There's a lot That's being done in the right way in the smart way. But it's also

[00:15:47] important to, take stock of all the different revenue streams. So, subscriptions is very big. Diversification for news publishers. is very big gamification, right? All these different platforms. whether it be integrating [00:16:00] new, Sports solutions. or Content that's, again, related to lifestyle. But not every news publisher is built And runs their business in the same way. So it's important to recognize even the local hub news publisher who's covering the beat of something that's taking place. They're at risk to their risk of funding. And there's like this slippery slope where when it hits them, those impacts might not be felt when I'm living in New York City or in

[00:16:26] other places. But those local communities, So, I think the onus is on this industry of how we can get back out there. And There are definitely ad tech companies are trying to do that and funnel those dollars there. And You see even the promotion of like new technologies with that. Trade Desk and Adfuntus Media, which hopefully will drive those revenues to those smaller news publishers.

[00:16:48] But, you know, at the same time, we're challenged. Whether it's ads, coming from brands, but then even certain algorithm changes that are impacting business lines that had seven figure revenue streams. You're seeing it across [00:17:00] the board. So, I think the stress is real. I think The stress is real for a lot of people. But it's important that, you know, we keep innovating and finding brand partners like SAS to come to the table to speak about how we can is good and you can find opportunity in hitting that audience and driving ROI and driving performance.

[00:17:17] That will only help. and hopefully it trickles down to the small guys too. 

[00:17:23] Ilyse: Joseph, what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand issue? what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand safety issue, but more that their audience just isn't there?

[00:17:40] That's a lot of, young readers, Gen Z ears are finding their news on TikTok and only TikTok. what would you say to them? I know it like can lion, for instance, a few months ago, McDonald's CMO. for instance, said that, 

[00:17:56] get our audience there and we'll bring [00:18:00] back the money. We'll put the money there. 

[00:18:03] Joseph: No, it's a great question, and I don't think they're wrong. I do think, however, the communication is not there, and, the insight that the Gen Z audience, whether it be Gen Z adults or younger Gen Z, are getting their information. from TikTok is very accurate. we've done that same report, at the Reuters Institute, which partners with Oxford, released that same study last year, and the new results are going to come out soon, to see how those channels are resonating with younger audiences.

[00:18:27] But, I asked a simple question, right? Like when the pandemic happened, where did people go? They went to news sites. They went to understand and get facts and information to inform the decisions that they were making, whether it be a mom who's worried about her children and going to school or the professional and the markets and how it's being affected.

[00:18:45] Now, Gen Z, just because they go to TikTok first doesn't mean they stop there. I'm sure they have their trusted sources. And I think the challenge is Hey, brands.

[00:18:53] You're only giving me 20 minutes to pitch, and it's very transactional right now when it comes to display ads [00:19:00] and video ads, audio ads, whatever it might be. Where's the opportunity to be consultative? Give us that platform. Let us have that. discourse. because Right now, the discourse that comes up is, we're just like, a no news. I don't think that's the case. If you ask any brand like, no, we support news. So how do we get them from saying, yes, we support news, but to, yes, we support news

[00:19:19] and the end is that should be filled in by us. How are we going to do something that's a little bit more innovative more creative to get them back into supporting that platform, But we all have the data to show those audiences are there, do we have the platform, however, to share that insight with them? That's something that needs to be rebuilt a little bit. And I think it's coming. there, though. And I think the events that happened in Cannes and the different studies that came out and rolled out are only going to help. And I really do appreciate that, that feedback. But, sitting as a challenger in that room, it's important to challenge.

[00:19:51] Joseph: It's very easy to say no, someone, no to someone who's like a friend. And getting that kind of feedback and going back and forth, that's good. That's where the discourse started.

[00:19:59] Ilyse: [00:20:00] Now, when it comes to advertising on news, what is the approach when it comes to a B2B company like SAS versus B2C or even D2C? How is it different? 

[00:20:12] Mibbie: I think we just have to look at what we're trying to advertise and get our, awareness out there about, and we're selling a very high end software and for us, that relationship of. premiumness with publishers. and having that there. We're not chasing cheap clicks because we have a very long sales cycle. So when it comes to B2C, that somebody's going to see those shoes and go buy them, it's very different than making a long term decision to purchase the software.

[00:20:38] So for us, we want to have that consistency with the brands and longevity more so than being kind of all over the place searching those cheap clicks or cheap impressions.

[00:20:47] so We pay a little more just to to get that consistency, consistency to get that frequency, but also, we have to think about sales cycles. And So ours is very long, nine months to a year. So long enough to have a baby. so we really have to have that consistency [00:21:00] right of being in the same place and having that consistent message.

[00:21:04] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:21:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:21:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:21:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:21:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:21:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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United recently launched Kinective Media, the airline industry’s first media network. Its first-party data could change the future of people’s travel experiences. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the current podcast this week we're delighted to talk with Mike Petrella, the managing director of partnerships at United airlines. In June, the airline launched a new initiative named connective media, which is the airline industry's first media network.

[00:00:17] The network will use data from its customer profiles to create a personalized and immersive travel journey. This launch comes at a time when retail media networks have become one of the hottest topics in ad tech, allowing brand marketers to target consumers using retailers first party data.

[00:00:35] We start by asking Mike about why United wanted to move in this direction. 

[00:00:40] Damian: United's the first travel focused company to develop its own media network called Connective Media by United Airlines, and how is this a boon for the company and its flyers?

[00:00:50] Mike: of course, so we consider ourselves a commerce media network, and we distinguish ourselves as a commerce media network. Given retail media, networks are typically point of [00:01:00] purchase, transaction based. The Commerce Media Network embraces the emotion, the journey, the feelings of all parts of the funnel.

[00:01:08] So when you think about our users at time of planning, time of travel,

[00:01:13] Damian: and signals

[00:01:14] Mike: time of destination, even when they're not thinking about travel, we have 108 million profiles. And the beauty of our data is it's incredibly accurate. You have to be Damien to get on a plane. Your name has to be what it is, your address has to be correct, your phone number, and all the other information.

[00:01:33] So the breadth of that information, coupled with the accuracy of it, gives us insights and signals that allow us to create these robust profiles of the user. And it's the user at all points. And the commerce nature of this isn't just a point of sale. We are not microtransactions on a consistent, on a constant basis.

[00:01:54] Rather, we think about The interaction of the user at the time of [00:02:00] planning, top funnel. At the time of trip, or even time of purchase in an ancillary mindset. Purchase path typically generates a significant amount of revenue. Be it airline tickets, upgrades, any purchase path.

[00:02:11] Regardless of whether it is airline ticket or if you're purchasing a ticket to an event, parking, whatever the case is. So for us, it's the ability to take that journey. To be able to identify when the right time to send the right message to the right user is. And that message could be an advertisement, it could be content, it could be nothing because it's not the right time.

[00:02:35] But in each of these cases, you can make a use case for any and every brand based on the scale and depth of our data.

[00:02:42] Damian: of our data. Fascinating. And you mentioned that long purchase journey, which is, sometimes it can be a long purchase journey, right? For air travel, or it could be short, but you do have a lot of scope within that context.

[00:02:54] Mike: It is. I mean, very few people spontaneously book tickets to destinations, right?

[00:02:59] And when [00:03:00] you're in that mindset, you're in a planning mindset, not only of the journey, but think about the insights and intelligence we can extract from the signals we receive to say, Well, this person happens to frequent a specific hotel chain, a car rental chain, a ride share company, when they land, they frequent a food delivery service.

[00:03:21] Endemic, but then you think the non endemic piece. And this is the beauty of what we do. The lines of endemic and non endemic are completely blurred. To me at least. Because I think about, when you get on a plane, you may be traveling home to return to normality. Which takes you to food shopping, which takes you to the pharmacy, which takes you to the laundromat.

[00:03:39] But my point is, I think the idea of always coupling a travel endemic brand or journey with the traveler is only a piece of it. be it on the road or at home.

[00:03:50] I may go see a music event. I may go purchase music. I might play music. I may eat pizza. I will eat pizza just to be clear. But my point is, my behaviors [00:04:00] There are some that are going to be unique based on my journey, and others that are going to overlap with when I'm traveling for leisure, when I'm home.

[00:04:08] And so, I love the fact that just, we can essentially meet the interests of the customer, which is the centric piece of this, and provide value to our partners as well.

[00:04:21] Damian: It's a very clear example of how non endemic works in a retail media network, I think, because, you know, when you think about other retail media networks, often think about the retailer and what it sells, but, you know, with United, it's a different story.

[00:04:34] Mike: Yeah, it's the breath of commerce, and that's what I enjoyed. That was like when I came here, it was eye opening. I had an idea, right? But just to see what we can do and really the validation of just how strong our data is and how valuable it is from a customer standpoint. When I say valuable to the customer, it is to spoon feed customers based on their interests.

[00:04:57] Cafeteria style doesn't work. There are too many choices. [00:05:00] So if you're in a planning phase and we can bring about certain things that are of, normality to you, booking a restaurant, booking a golf reservation, simply as getting my ride share, it makes the journey easier. It makes it feel like it's Damien Fowler's journey, not just a customer who purchased a seat in one of our planes.

[00:05:20] Damian: Yeah, I love that. And I just want to take that point a little bit further. Can you give some more examples of how, you work with brands, whether endemic or, when I say endemic, that would be travel related, right? Or not. and where that media might appear.

[00:05:34] Mike: Sure. So today we are, our media network extends from our dot com, our in app, we have digital signage within the airports, be it in our clubs and lounges, gate information displays, on our planes we have in flight entertainment, or we call IFE, or personal device entertainment on your phone, and so as part of United Next, we made an investment to purchase north of [00:06:00] 800 planes.

[00:06:01] And within each of those planes, they will be outfitted with the new IFE system. It's meant to be more of an OTT experience versus the current experience, which quite frankly is, it's legacy, it's the 1950s. It's a small screen with limited choices and it's not what we're used to. we envision this opportunity to have a very personalized experience in which you will have your interests displayed on that screen and every person's screen will be different.

[00:06:28] Based on that individual. And so, for us, we will be retrofitting our current fleet, with the exception of a couple planes that will be retired over time. And so, over time, we will have screens in all planes on a, personalized basis. And so, for us too, it's, you extend past that, you have email and such.

[00:06:47] It's a true omni channel offering, but most importantly, it's the engagement. We have an average of three and a half hour flight time. And so, when you're at home You can get up, use the restroom, go to the kitchen, whatever, if [00:07:00] a commercial comes on. You cannot do the same in a plane. At the same frequency. I mean, yes, you can get up, but the idea of having the ability to engage in an intimate and targeted manner with our users and to be able to show them things of their interest is huge.

[00:07:16] Right? And then you think more, in lounges and clubs, It's not going to be personalized. If Damien walks in, if you walk into the club, you don't want to see. Hello, Damon. How are you? Do you need a new green shirt? That's creepy, right? Yes. So again, there's you can think about. the business traveler travels from Monday at 5 a.

[00:07:35] m. to 11 a. m. and Thursdays from 4 to 7. So perhaps we put advertisers endemic to that audience. Families travel on weekends and these are generalities. But through research and through signals, we can begin to capture that. And again, the right message at the right time.

[00:07:50] Damian: What customer insights will help connect brands with United Flyers?

[00:07:54] Mike: So we capture over 120 targetable segments, or signals, I should say. And that [00:08:00] is, a mix of attitudinal, behavioral, lifestyle, and transactional. And today, our audience indexed to the highly affluent individual. Married, college educated, homeowner, household income of 250, 000 plus. And so you'll see in some of our launch partners, Bottega Veneta, which is a luxury brand, McAllen's, a higher end Scotch.

[00:08:21] Very good for that audience, but at the same time, we are very diverse in terms of who is on our plane. We, our launch partner was Televisa Univision. 25 percent of the Chicago population is Hispanic. Is it 63 million, Spanish speaking, Americans in the U. S., right? So the idea of just focusing on one demographic doesn't do anyone justice.

[00:08:45] very much. Right? Again, speaks to that scale of data. And so, we, there's a use case for every single brand, every single opportunity. We

[00:08:56] Damian: that nuance that you can bring to it, to [00:09:00] advertising, is obviously key to this. what strategies is Connective employ to personalize ads and offer that to these different segments?

[00:09:08] We are a very privacy centric, privacy

[00:09:10] Mike: privacy safe, conservative approach to what we're doing. We sit atop GAM. we work with, a number of clean rooms. any and everything we do is meant to uphold the integrity of that customer's data. we will never sell the data as a stand alone. It'll always be wrapped with media on a managed basis.

[00:09:31] And I say that because the sale of data opens up opportunity for bad actors. Then there are bad actors out there. So when it comes down to it You know, we want to ensure that we are keeping our customers, information, and privacy at the forefront. And then, any and everything we do is in a compliant way.

[00:09:51] Data collaborations through clean rooms, proper encryption at all specific times, proper measurement and verification. it's a textbook [00:10:00] approach, knowing full well that, 

[00:10:04] Mike: party data is currency, you have to protect it, and you have to use it in the right manner.

[00:10:09] Damian: And it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful.

[00:10:20] Mike: It's been overwhelming, honestly. I used to work, I helped startup advertising. com a long time ago, and all its brand names up through Yahoo. And I was always the one vying for a brand's business. To work on a brand site now has been an eye opening experience because you have the problem of choice. And the reception to what we've been doing has been incredibly positive.

[00:10:44] and it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. The work that we did is interesting. but we have to be smart in terms of who we work with. I would say the outreach from partners, we always want to maintain a very premium nature for any owned [00:11:00] and operated supply. I think it's important.

[00:11:02] Again, the brand integrity for United is paramount. but at the same time, as I said earlier, there's a use case for all brands. And we're always open to exploration and conversations. And then making the right choice based on United brand, based on the value for our customers and for the overall business.

[00:11:21] Damian: Now travel has skyrocketed since pandemic times, and that's been well reported. Can you describe the change United has seen more generally in people coming back to the skies?

[00:11:32] Mike: the largest airline in the U. S. right now. and it's, it's a great position to be in because people fly United for the experience.

[00:11:39] We do not compete with low cost carriers. That's not our model. People fly for the convenience, for the experience, for the opportunity to increase their loyalty status, for the journey in itself. Our app is the number one rated app in the, in, of all airlines, and if you, you know, I'm not sure if you're a flyer or not, Thank you.

[00:11:58] If you are [00:12:00] so you see that app is very intuitive in terms of my baggage goes here. My gate is here. And so against personalization, right? It may not be specific. Damien. This is your journey. Rather, you are flying at this airport. Here is where your luggage is. Here's where your gate is. And it's just it's taking those steps to just again lessen the hassle of travel.

[00:12:19] And then, as you get on the plane, our flight attendants, our ground crew, our pilots are just top caliber. it's the friendliness that you see. again, the experience extends beyond

[00:12:29] Damian: a traveler's standpoint.

[00:12:30] Mike: Connected media provides an opportunity for us to gather what we have from our three core pillars. Travel, loyalty, and media.

[00:12:39] And it's that flywheel. we are able to ingest signals based on the profiles that we have. And in doing so, you begin to see the traveler profile as it begins to matriculate to an actual loyalty partner.

[00:12:52] 39 million mileage plus loyalty partners. We have a co brand card through Chase. Right. We have our mileage plus [00:13:00] partnerships team, and we think about that from the Avis's, the Marriott's, from a travel endemic standpoint, non endemic, even like the away, I guess away luggage is not therabody, things to that effect.

[00:13:10] And so, the ability to accrue and redeem miles as transaction. And then, with the credit card, the ability to redeem miles, or accrue miles, I should say, through transactions. As you go through the flywheel, you come to the media piece, which is the connective tissue. To understanding the middle and lower funnel of that transaction, purchase point, brand affinity, options for our users.

[00:13:33] And then back to the first part, the emotion, and the journey, and the actual travel. And as we do this flywheel, we have more travelers, which means more signals, which means more opportunities for media, which means more, and it's a self fulfilling flywheel that essentially, again, with the customer in the middle, or the customer is the focus, it's Creates that opportunity to your point of why people are flying more with United.[00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Damian: What kind of feedback have you had from those customers? what are people's experience, what are people experiencing and how are they setting that back to you?

[00:14:08] Mike: think the best part is, they've come up and said I'm so excited you're doing this. Never would have thought of this. like you, you're hearing it from the horse's mouth, right? So there's, in an unbiased manner, what I'm most proud of is the fact that we've come out with a legitimate business with a very, very focused North Star, that is focused solely around the customer.

[00:14:31] that's unique. And to bring it to market at the speed that we did. With the help that we had from partners and the support that we've had from the industry has been just, has been amazing. Now the

[00:14:43] Damian: the idea now seems like a very good one. And you're describing, you're telling me, Mike, how quickly you brought it to market. What, in under a year, really? I mean, it's a good idea. Do you expect that other airlines are going to want to emulate, what you've done here with your media network?

[00:14:59] Mike: is [00:15:00] a very savvy airline. They're a great airline. they're doing certain things

[00:15:07] with the connect, that we're connecting. streaming from a device to their, seatback screens. They've done partnerships with Walmart Plus and such. Whether they come out with a full scale media network, I'm not sure. but, United and Delta are the top two airlines in the U. S.

[00:15:22] And they are a very savvy brand. So, if they come out, I would not be, surprised. I don't know about the others. You know, for me, it's not one's better than the other. It's just where I see the next. In

[00:15:35] Damian: In general, while we're on the topic of predictions, when you look ahead to the rest of this year and to next, as you build this offering out, what are the kind of trends you're looking for in terms of that merging of travel and media that you just talked about? The year into next, what trends are you all looking for?

[00:16:09] Mike: It's really, when you and I grew up, you had to pay for HBO, you had to pay for ESPN. it's a similar model, and you're seeing consolidation and M& A start in that sector. There's too many choices for consumers. Today, there's 273 retail media networks. That is not scalable, right? Marketers and agencies already have too many choices to make.

[00:16:30] and at the same time, the uniqueness of that data, depending on the sectors. It may not be all that unique. I do think there's going to be consolidation. There has to be. And for me, I would expect that. I think we're in a very good position just given the unique position that we're in. And quite frankly, like the three pillars, right?

[00:16:53] Scale, accuracy, and omni channel. And we can say we have that with confidence. I would say like, [00:17:00] to your point of expectations, there has to be consolidation. I think the introduction of AI, it wouldn't be a podcast without saying AI. I've already said flywheel, if there's another one I need to say.

[00:17:11] But I do think, the introduction of AI into not only the purchase path, but more importantly, the analytics. Right? Humans know which questions to ask. AI will figure out what other questions to ask. And as we constantly feed these models, you're going to have, just from an analytics standpoint, the ability to extract new data, new intelligence, new insights, and we want to be on the forefront there to ensure that, we modernize our offering at a pace that is quicker, than what the industry is seeing.

[00:17:44] Damian: Do you anticipate that your media network and what you're offering might have some kind of partnerships with some of those streaming platforms? I'm just thinking. Yeah, it's my job. So,

[00:17:54] Mike: So, like, I do. I think there's opportunity for partnership. Yeah. it's the many versus the [00:18:00] power of one.

[00:18:00] Damian: Yeah. 

[00:18:01] Mike: You have to be selective, right? If you partner with everyone, you partner with no one. So, I think there's opportunities in the travel space. I do think there's opportunities in the non endemic space, too. We're at really early stages, so Honestly, platform side, I'm not used to this much attention.

[00:18:21] and I love it. And we brought friends in to build this business. I'm working with my friends. I absolutely love it. And so together we're kind of sitting down and putting our heads together and say, okay, like we got to the starting line. We bust out our asses for nine months and we got to the starting line. How do we run this race and always be the leader? Because there's going to be people coming up after us. And that challenge with one another is great because we're pushing one another to be better. And it's not intense in the sense that like, any conversations with emotion are meant for constructive and collaboration.

[00:18:57] And I think we're all being better because we're constantly pushing [00:19:00] one another. But more importantly, we're supporting one another.

[00:19:02] Damian: Yeah. you do see some relationships with broadcasters, with in flight entertainment, but I imagine this is going to go. To a different level.

[00:19:11] Mike: this is the early stage of the business. This is the exciting part. we're the bright, shiny object right now, and I think it's good to revel in that just to pat yourself on the back and say, Hey, we did it.

[00:19:22] But realistically, like complacency doesn't get you anywhere, right? So everyone else has got has gotten to the starting line. There's been 273 other companies that got to the starting line, and some are running the race faster than others, and some are not even on the same course anymore. so for us, I think it's about heads down, and just constantly push.

[00:19:42] And to be the best,

[00:19:49] Damian: is highly competitive. Do you feel the pressure?

[00:19:53] Mike: I don't feel the pressure from the industry. I feel the pressure to deliver. Like, me personally, I hold the bar very [00:20:00] high for myself, and I'm my worst critic. I know what it's like to be successful. I helped launch advertising. com and I can tell you those first five years were by far like the highlight of my life from a professional standpoint.

[00:20:11] these last nine months are on par with that. And if I can make the next four years and three months the same or better, I'm going to do everything I can to do it. And if there's 23 years, 18 more years to follow that, great. I hope to retire at some point in my life. But, um, I'm just excited because.

[00:20:30] This is real. And it's good. And, will be responsible for our success. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it. 

[00:20:37] Damian: thank you so much for these insights. It's been great.

[00:20:40] Mike: to speak with you, Damian. Thank you.

[00:20:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:20:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:53] Damian: . And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please [00:21:00] subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Wayfair Head of Brand Marketing Kara O’Brien joins The Current Podcast to discuss blending the in-store and digital shopping experience.

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Ilyse: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kara O'Brien, Head of Brand Marketing and Analytics at Wayfair.

[00:00:11] Ilyse: For years, Wayfair has been an online one stop shop for people looking for everything from beds to couches to kitchen appliances. In fact, for those browsing home goods, the choices often seem endless.

[00:00:23] Damian: I know, because I've spent many long hours looking for the perfect bathroom cabinet to fit into my tiny New York apartment. But seriously though, one of the big draws for Wayfair has always been its reasonable prices for its products.

[00:00:35] Ilyse: Wayfair is famous as an e commerce platform, but now that's changing. In May, the company opened its first brick and mortar store. start by asking Kara about why the company made this move.

[00:00:47] Ilyse: First, I believe congratulations are in order because Wayfair opened its first brick and mortar store back in May.

[00:00:54] So, why don't you walk us through the decision to make the leap into a physical storefront?[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Kara: Absolutely We are so excited about this milestone. It's something that's been a long time coming. I personally have been at Wayfair for 10 years, and it has been one of the peak moments of my time there to see our brand come to life physically. so why now? I mean, our ethos has always been to deliver the best possible experience for our customer, and now we want to really be able to do it however they shop and however they choose to shop.

[00:01:24] And so to be able to bring the It's a product to the customer. Let them see it in person, help guide them through the purchasing process. It's it makes a ton of sense. And, consumer demand has shifted so much during and since the pandemic, there was, pretty strong move to buying these more considered purchases online when people had no option to go in store.

[00:01:46] But, now we're seeing the pendulum swing back and the consumer preference is to have a mix, to have a balance, to be able to see things in person, but have the convenience of being able to shop and research from home. 

[00:01:57] Ilyse: Yes, now I know I'm, I have an apartment in New York and i've spent too many hours on Wayfair, probably.

[00:02:03] Kara: - love to hear that.

[00:02:04] Ilyse: but why did you land on Wilmette, Illinois for this touch point? And how are you bringing the brand to life in store?

[00:02:12] Kara: Yeah, to start with Wilmette, I think there's two big considerations that ended up there. one is convenience. And so we really want to make shopping for your home as easy as possible. It's a process. It's something that's so important to so many people.

[00:02:25] And so we don't want the process itself to feel onerous. And so for us, we had found this wonderful space. It's in a revitalized shopping center. It's surrounded by suburbs with lots of young families who are really kind of our core customer. And then the access to the broader Chicagoland, uh, area was fantastic.

[00:02:45] So that's always been a strong market for us. But more on the business side, it's, It's very well positioned within our logistics network, and to kind of come back to that idea of convenience, we can ship products to, directly to customers home instead of trying to fit something [00:03:00] large and bulky in the back of your trunk.

[00:03:02] And so we're able to do that fast, free, easy, when they've seen something in store or if they've explored beyond.

[00:03:10] Ilyse: mortars follow or?

[00:03:12] Kara: I think that's the idea eventually, but I think one thing we're really trying to do is learn at being an e commerce company. First, there's so much one way conversation that you have with the customer through your marketing, through your site. This is an opportunity to have that two way conversation.

[00:03:28] And, we recognize we're new to the space. We're going to learn a ton and hopefully be able to apply that

[00:03:34] Ilyse: what 

[00:03:34] Damian: to what extent does the physical store help build the brand perception? And I know you sort of touched on that, but what I'm interested in is, it's known as an e commerce platform, and here you are now building out a physical store.

[00:03:46] So What does that do? How does that help?

[00:03:49] Kara: Yeah, well, I think it's rooted in who we were as an e commerce company, right? We have so many different types of products. We have, tens of millions of products on site. [00:04:00] And so the challenge at hand was really how do you take that vast selection and put it into a box, right? You can only put a finite number of products in.

[00:04:08] And so for us, what we were really trying to solve for is how do you at Google Demonstrate that breadth, but still assist people through that purchasing process so that they can find that thing they were looking for, even if they didn't even know they wanted it. And so a lot of our philosophy was we want to be able to give you departments that are specific to a space, but we also wanted to have a through line that We're specific to your style.

[00:04:34] So the way you can shop the store, it's not, living room over here, bedroom over here, completely cordoned off. It's more of a choose your own adventure. So if I have multiple projects and I have a modern aesthetic with a little bit of a rustic twist. We have pathways to carry you through.

[00:04:49] If you are mission driven and just need a new set of pots and pans, we can get you there quickly too. and so then the other thing that's a component to that, given how much we have, is the [00:05:00] support needed along the way. And so we have our associates trained to help you find the things you want, if you want a different color, we can show you that through our e commerce platform, but then you know that the size is perfect because you saw it in the store.

[00:05:12] Damian: So you're connecting the in store experience to the digital experience.

[00:05:16] Kara: closely. The technology enablement was so important to us. We wanted to make sure people could understand again that endless aisle, but make it a very shoppable experience in store. we also are going to be launching new services like design services to help customers complete that project with confidence.

[00:05:31] and so very much want it to be an interplay. Now,

[00:05:40] Ilyse: back in March, which included a full omni channel activation featuring celebrity spokespeople and an updated logo. What were the most successful lovers within this campaign, and are there any surprising insights so far? Yeah, well, we

[00:05:54] Kara: Yeah, we were really excited to bring this to market. along with this campaign, we have a revised tagline [00:06:00] of every style, every home. And I think the whole goal in the campaign was to be able to show that, not just say that. And so by bringing in different personalities, some recognizable, some just relatable, we felt like we could showcase that breadth, but in ways that, a consumer looks at the ad, the campaign and says, Oh, I see myself in that.

[00:06:17] I know that I can get what I'm looking for. as it comes to the winds, it's still early days, just launching in March. Not a ton of time. But we're seeing really positive response to the casting to the breadth of personalities were showing. It's quite memorable as a result. So we're seeing good spikes in attention metrics.

[00:06:35] We know it's resonant, and we know that people are associating it with wayfair. So for us, that own ability was a really important goal in the campaign.

[00:06:43] Ilyse: TV spots during the Oscars. Yes. What was the impact of those pretty high profile ads?

[00:06:49] Kara: Oh, I think it was really nice as we went on this more of an evolution than a revolution of the brand. It was really nice to be able to showcase that in a big splashy way and have as many people [00:07:00] see it as possible. And then as you've seen and will continue to see over the course of the year, we're really building on that.

[00:07:06] So we have a few different spots. They all exist in this world of the waverhood and, that sort of, The sort of universal experiences that people have in their communities are the things we're trying to show in all different ways. Now beyond those

[00:07:19] Damian: Now beyond those big TV spots, are there other sort of digital channels that you're exploring?

[00:07:24] Kara: lot of this campaign was not just about the what, but the where. And so we've definitely taken an expanded lens to how we show up for our customers, and really trying to make sure we understand where they're spending time. We show up there and then as a result are additive to their experience, too And you know some of the newer spaces were in definitely moving more into streaming video Moving more into audio which we hadn't done before home tends to be quite a visual category So that's been a really exciting experiment for us and then working with all sorts of creators I think that's an emerging area [00:08:00] for us but really important for thinking about home and showcasing style and self expression

[00:08:06] Damian: a sort of Specific demographic. You mentioned young homeowners. That's interesting. And that perhaps predetermines which channels you might like to engage people in.

[00:08:16] Kara: Absolutely.

[00:08:17] we are a mass brand. We do have something for everyone. But at the same time, when you think about who's spending disproportionately on their home, who has more needs, it's definitely the folks who are going through these meaningful life events where their notion of home is changing. And so really the sort of bullseye of that are young families.

[00:08:36] you're getting married, you're moving in together, you're trying to merge styles maybe successfully, maybe less successfully, you have parents who are now thinking about safety and designing a nursery all the way through durability as the kids get older. And then, moving on up through to empty nesters.

[00:08:53] There's a very different set of needs. So we really want to start with that sort of nucleus of a starter family, a young family, [00:09:00] and grow the relationship from

[00:09:01] Damian: That absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:11] Ilyse: an e commerce company? That's

[00:09:13] Kara: that's a fantastic question. for us, we're longtime digital marketers. Digital is a very direct path to our site. And so a lot of the challenges when you're, telling a story and you're trying to guide towards that less direct path to get to site, how do you do so? And, help the customer understand what they should expect when they show up.

[00:09:31] And so for me, the things that I'm thinking about all the time are storytelling. Really trying to make sure that we are contextually relevant wherever we're showing up, again, something that we're tackling with the new distribution channels. and then really making sure that a company that has been so digitally minded is making that connection.

[00:09:50] And so, now under my purview is our on site team. Marketing team and thinking about when you see us in a TV ad, and then you show up on our home page. How do we make that feel like a [00:10:00] continuous journey? so it's definitely been a journey. I think it's an exciting one. Again, as somebody who's been with this brand for a long time, it's really exciting to see us lean more into that storytelling.

[00:10:09] Ilyse: So you've been with Wayfair now for over 10 years. In that time frame, How would you categorize and characterize the changes in the media landscape?

[00:10:20] Kara: I really think how the consumer expects to discover content has changed dramatically. Where they go, Who they go to, how they think about sharing. It's just, it's changing so rapidly and continues to do so. So for us, as we think about a category that is quite emotive, quite personal. Quite unique to an individual.

[00:10:43] We want to make sure that we can show up in a way that helps somebody discover what they're looking for or discover that perfect piece. And so, you know, insofar as the media landscape, it's not just turning to a single celebrity or a single friend. You actually have access to so much. And so, we want to be a [00:11:00] breakthrough voice.

[00:11:00] We want to help people parse through that and find that perfect thing, which ends up being then this ultimate combination of content and commerce. 

[00:11:09] Ilyse: How does Wayfair go about measuring the impact of the users on its sites? 

[00:11:16] Kara: yeah. So I mean, picking up on that thread of bridging the offline and the online, I think what's been, you know, a challenge faced by many brands is that you have to think about that total ecosystem that a customer is interacting with and how you can understand how they're moving through it, what they're seeing, what they're reacting to.

[00:11:34] And so for us, we've been on a little bit of a journey to expand how we think about measurement. we've Certainly done a lot of investment in multi touch attribution, especially being more digitally native. we're expanding to think about running different kinds of experiments, understanding, lift on brand metrics over the short term and over the long term.

[00:11:54] and then adding to our based model arsenal. what's great about being e commerce [00:12:00] first, though, is we do get a lot of first party data on our customers. We can see how they move around our site. We know where they've come from, largely, and we can start to stitch that story together so that we can serve them better through personalized mediums as well as an aggregate understand, where they're gravitating towards.

[00:12:17] Ilyse: What are some of the major KPIs that you try to hit or some of those analytics that you really strive for?

[00:12:25] Kara: Yeah, for us, we always just want to build a notion of impact. And I think what's been growing us as marketers is that's not a singular definition. And so it depends on the campaign. It depends on the goal of the test. when we're thinking about offline marketing or brand marketing, we're looking for immediate recall.

[00:12:44] We're looking for a lift in certain impression metrics. or, perception metrics, rather, depending on what we're trying to convey through the campaign, all the way through to more of the mid funnel and consideration, where are we driving visits? What share of those are from new customers versus prior customers?[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] And then how are those customers engaging on site? Are they purchasing right away? Did they come in because they saw a specific category or style? All the way through to how many visits does it take before you're comfortable making a large purchase? and so we follow them, you can call it a funnel, though it tends to not be quite so linear as a funnel.

[00:13:18] Um, yeah.

[00:13:19] Ilyse: in some cases, the funnel has kind of died with like e commerce. Yeah,

[00:13:23] Kara: it's much more of, I said the word before, an ecosystem, right? Like things are moving together non linearly and it's about telling that story, that narrative internally and then playing it back to the customer to give them what they're looking for. 

[00:13:37] Damian: as we, you know, look to 2025, what are the things that are sort of exciting you in terms of innovation when it comes to marketing?

[00:13:44] Yeah,

[00:13:48] Kara: and back again, I think we really want to create a total experience for customers, and that'll be through storytelling. That'll be through working with different types of [00:14:00] partners, really thinking about how consumers want to do discovery, and, that's going to be a big focus for us.

[00:14:06] I think like many brands, we are exploring the right use cases for AI to power a lot of what we do. There's everything from the, the stuff behind the walls of how do you get more efficient in your processes all the way through, expanding the number of creatives you're able to put out in a given test.

[00:14:24] so that's very much an area of investment and innovation for us. and then, you know, as we continue to learn through the store, going back to where we started and understanding how we can just make customers lives easier, you think about expanding that to the entire delivery experience, any type of follow on customer service that's needed.

[00:14:44] There's a lot of places where we think we're quite differentiated and we always want to take a technology first approach to it.

[00:14:51] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:14:53] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:14:56] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current [00:15:00] team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. And remember, 

[00:15:03] I'm Damian.

[00:15:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:15:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Parbinder Dhariwal, VP and GM of CVS Media Exchange, discusses CVS’s self-service advertising offering and the future of DEI initiatives in retail media.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:01] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:02] Ilyse: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:04] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Parbinder Dhariwal, or Parbs as he's known by friends and colleagues. He's the Vice President and General Manager at CVS Media Exchange.

[00:00:14] Ilyse: Launched in 2020, the CVS Media Exchange, or CMX, helps brands and partners reach CVS Pharmacy customers and members of its Extra Care Loyalty Program through a variety of digital platforms, including social channels, programmatic display, and on cvs.com.

[00:00:32] Damian: There's been a ton of advertiser interest in the retail media space. In fact, it's become one of the fastest growing digital media channels.

[00:00:39] Ilyse: According to Group M, retail media networks are expected to grow revenues by 8. 3 percent in 2024. We start off by asking Parbs about this revolution.

[00:00:50] Damian: So, Parbs, we keep reading about the retail media revolution from retail media networks exploding to self service and data portability. What do you think the next phase of this [00:01:00] revolution is? Well, the

[00:01:01] Parbs: the retail media revolution is in full swing, isn't it? it's rockin and rollin right now. and, doesn't seem to be slowing down and letting up.

[00:01:08] I think the, Group M stat and growth that they're forecasting for this year is an interesting one. we also know that it's gonna be the fastest growing channel, right the way through 2027. If you look at the market to stats, we're gonna outpace linear TV in the next couple of years.

[00:01:23] So there is tremendous amount of growth. I think as we think about that revolution as we think about the way in which we operate as an organizer, as as an industry as a whole. measurement, transparency and clear campaign attribution are going to continue to be the driving force of the way in which we think about our business.

[00:01:42] this has got to be central for brands. We have an opportunity as an industry to really change the game there and we're very much leaving in. the other piece is, is around how do we continue to advance in technology, how do we continue to advance in, using AI, [00:02:00] machine learning, a lot of the analytics tools that are going to be available to us and build our capabilities so we can really start to compete with some of those larger platforms, within the industry.

[00:02:11] And then also, let's always not forget, retail media is nothing without the core brands that we are retail media networks, and a part of. So, in this instance, we're very much a retail media network. CMX is the retail media network for CVS, pharmacy. we operate under that guise, And what is most important to us within that capacity is for us to really understand and meet the needs of the consumer.

[00:02:36] If we don't understand the consumer, we can't meet their needs. If we can't service the consumer and help understand, whether they're in a store environment and how could we create a level of discoverability in the in store environment? Or how do we create that discoverability in digital environments?

[00:02:53] That's when we start to lose our gravitas. So thinking about the consumer first and then how do we add [00:03:00] to their experience as they're shopping through our stores, both, as I said, from a physical as well as digital and looking at it through the omni channel lens.

[00:03:09] Damian: and just off the back of that, you do have tremendous scale. What kind of customer reach are you looking at?

[00:03:15] Parbs: Yeah, it's a, great question. And you got to remember CVS, pharmacy is a national brand in the United States. And I'll give you some, this probably the moment for me to, throw a few stats at you, right? Like, let's do this. so first and foremost, CVS stores, there's 9, 000 locations in the U S.

[00:03:32] we are, part of CVS health, which is, The largest health and wellness, business in the U. S. 

[00:03:39] Parbs: As you think about our stores in particular, we have close to 5 million interactions with our stores every single day from consumers. So, vast amount of traffic that comes through our stores and for various need states as well.

[00:03:52] from a digital perspective, we have almost 140 million, Users who are coming to the CVS. com site and again interacting with us [00:04:00] with various different need states. but shopping is a core component of that. And then the most important stats certainly from a CMX standpoint is we are predicated and built upon our loyalty program.

[00:04:11] And it kind of differentiates us a little bit from other retail media networks. Our loyalty program is 74 million extra care consumers. substantial. at scale, but also gives us that really strong purview of that omnichannel experience. So hopefully that sort of just helps you give an understanding of the scale that we operate within.

[00:04:33] Really?

[00:04:33] Damian: yeah, I mean, it's massive and we want to talk a little bit more about the Extra Care Loyalty Program.

[00:04:38] Parbs: Program. If there's anybody out

[00:04:39] Damian: further on. but you know, I'm not sure if this question if there's anybody out there right now who doesn't actually, subscribe to retail media. the power of retail media. But what would you say to such a person, an advertiser who believes retail media doesn't fit into their media investment?

[00:04:55] Parbs: Yeah, I say that to them that, you know, retail data, [00:05:00] the way in which we see the transactions within our stores, that level of wealth of proprietary data is an understanding of. Of behaviors and the way in which consumers are shopping between digital, physical environments when they're coming into store, the frequency by which they're purchasing product.

[00:05:17] That is a highly effective tool. And as a brand, if you're not leveraging that, you're missing out on an enormous channel. This is the reason why. Brands are leaning in heavily. They're becoming much more sophisticated in how they use retail media. I think they're also really pushing retail media as well to become more sophisticated in the offerings, more sophisticated in the way that we measure more sophisticated in the way in which we provide that level of transparency across our businesses.

[00:05:46] Closing the loop and building that attribution model is also really, really important. That sets us apart from any other platform. like that. There are some of the larger platforms that have continually [00:06:00] struggled to provide that level of closed loop attribution as I think about I saw an ad or I've engaged with an ad.

[00:06:08] And what has that driven me to do? And what is the outcomes as a result of that? That again is something that retail media is very much in an exclusive camp. And we've got to make sure that brands truly understand how to use them.

[00:06:21] Damian: that

[00:06:22] Parbs: And the other thing that we should, make sure that we, that we understand is that there's retail media networks that have enormous amount of first party data.

[00:06:33] And as a result of that first party data,

[00:06:35] Damian: not

[00:06:36] Parbs: it gives us the ability to leverage that consumer across the omni channel. But not just on our own owned and operated properties, but how do you leverage that data or that asset across the open web. Right when you're trading with, through be it through DSP environments or otherwise.

[00:06:53] How do you leverage that CVS data, the extra care loyalty program to continually [00:07:00] enrich your programs, your marketing efforts to drive more performance to drive more product to drive more engagement with the consumer. So we're sitting on a we're sitting on a massive opportunity. And it's in our hands, right?

[00:07:14] It's in our hands as the retailers to, To step up. It's in our hands to make sure that we continue to provide all of the things that brands are looking for and provide that level of transparency on how we're measuring our performance and more importantly, bringing brands in the industry along on this.

[00:08:38] We're, it's got to be additive to their journey, not disruptive. we want to, we don't want to put things in the way of the consumer getting to the products that they need. But we, what we do is we want to enable a level of discoverability through the retail media networks that gives them access to products that they didn't realize that they could buy at CVS.

[00:08:55] They didn't realize that they were, in the beauty counter. I think it's, I think those are really [00:09:00] important.

[00:09:00] Ilyse: really important. Yeah. On that note, last year, CVS is extra care. It was named one of Newsweek's best loyalty programs. How has CVS cultivated such a strong relationship with its customers?

[00:09:12] Parbs: Yeah, and look, extra care has been around for over two decades. The longitudinal latitudinal nature of the program gives us a really strong insight into the way that the consumers have been having and purchasing products with us. again, I'm sounding like a little bit of a broken record here.

[00:09:30] It's not my intention, but the consumer is at the center of everything that we do. Understanding the way that the consumer purchases, it enables us to deliver message, personalized message to those consumers in the environments within which they operate. We can understand certain need states and how that consumer is wanting to go, and work with us in the, in our environment.

[00:09:50] we will continue to build, that loyalty program for, with extra care. It's the foundation of CMX, we've talked about it at the top of this podcast. There's [00:10:00] 74 million of those consumers, they're swiping at really high levels. they're engaging with our, with our program as well.

[00:10:06] And, yeah. that's where the opportunity comes on. I was providing a level of service back to them with the ads business as well.

[00:10:12] Damian: self service. The

[00:10:13] Ilyse: On that note, no, separate notes. but along the line of service, CVS Media Exchange introduced the self service option for advertisers that was announced this past CanLion. why is launching a self service important for increased transparency? I know that's a popular buzzword around, the industry, but it's also extremely important.

[00:10:36] Yeah,

[00:10:37] Damian: transparency

[00:10:38] Parbs: Transparency is, it is a buzzword, but it's a it's an old. It's also an incredibly important foundational pillar for us as a business. and the way in which we operate. So I think that's the, I would say that. the, related to the self serve announcement, that we announced at CAN, it's actually more about, whilst the transparency is there, it's also about accessibility.[00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] How do we provide a level of accessibility to our inventory, in, ways in which they can access that inventory through a DSP platform through a particular seat. So sell serve opens up how brands want to work with retail media. And we've only really been in market as a retail media network since 2020.

[00:11:21] We're developing this business. We're bringing it to market. I think we're doing it at speed. I think we're doing it very thoughtfully on The partners that we work with, in this instance, we're working with a trade desk on this self service program. trade desk shared our values.

[00:11:35] They share the way in which we want to innovate. They share the way in which we are looking at the consumer and driving that technology in order to continue to develop solutions for our advertisers. What I don't want us to forget is You know, as we think about that accessibility, as we think about transparency, how do we continue to iterate from here?

[00:11:57] How do we continue to develop innovation with [00:12:00] other tech partners, with the trade desk to, to further enhance how we're, bringing new solutions to our advertisers?

[00:12:07] Ilyse: Can you actually explain it a little bit more? Where, in using your self serve option, where can advertisers expect their ads to appear, or how are they accessing your data to, to drive

[00:12:23] Parbs: Yep. So we're going into a closed beta, with the trade desk. That will allow a certain number of select advertisers to come and work with us and develop programs, within our closed self serve beta environment. we're building audiences within those environments. The way in which it will operate is that the brand will use their Trade Desk C in order to activate campaigns through the Trade Desk DSP into the open web.

[00:12:52] So they have the ability to buy OpenWeb or CTV and all of the different products that are available through the Trade Desk [00:13:00] but accessibility to 74 million extra care consumers. It's the first time that we've made that available in a self serve capacity, with the Trade Desk. Now. , that's not always how brands wanna operate.

[00:13:11] Some brands want to go into the self-serve world and others want to just cont continue down the managed service route. So we will continue to offer managed serve as an option. so that product will remain and we have a strong team to support that. But we also want to create, again, accessibility options for the way in which brands wanna engage with us. Very interesting.

[00:13:34] Damian: Now, you wrote an op ed for The Current, this year, and in that op ed you said something, if I may quote you, creating a tailored customer experience across channels and pulling together data from various touchpoints, that being website visits, mobile apps, in store interactions, loyalty programs, and more.

[00:13:53] It can be a challenge, and I know we often like to talk about, opportunities and hand in hand with challenges. I wonder if you [00:14:00] could talk a little bit about the challenge you're referencing there.

[00:14:04] Parbs: Yeah, the challenge stems from, again, retail media is predicated on really closing the loop, so how do we attribute an action, right the way through to purchase. And if you think about, hyper personalization, for the consumer, to drive more engagement. That consumer is, it's, they're difficult to reach, but they're more importantly, they're difficult to make sure that we continually serve the right level of message to them in the right environments. Previously, retailers have struggled with, bringing that, the assets, the data components, and then how do you target personalized message to them within the channels that we want to talk to them as well. That's where, our first party data and the use of our first party data and as we're building our audiences really actually comes

[00:14:59] Ilyse: [00:15:00] the

[00:15:00] Parbs: its own.

[00:15:01] That challenge of, Understanding the consumer and how you can actually leverage that consumer in different channels That's really the driver to building a performance business for our brands

[00:15:15] Damian: a lot

[00:15:16] Parbs: We're seeing a lot of work around, whether it's through customer data platforms or other technology, to bring our consumers to life.

[00:15:23] We use data clean rooms to make sure that, we always drive the security of our, uh, consumer, that we're not passing any data, any information through to, consumers.

[00:15:33] Ilyse: tech

[00:15:34] Damian: to maintain

[00:15:35] Parbs: or through to any other platforms. We're maintaining that level of privacy. These are all obviously challenges. but it's important to mention that, as we think about propriety data, we think about precision targeting, we think about that real time optimization and that also the attribution

[00:15:51] Damian: attribution of

[00:15:52] Parbs: of an end to end reporting.

[00:15:54] That's where brands are really embracing retail media networks. That's where we've got to lean in as an [00:16:00] industry, and we've got to get better, we've got to get more transparent about how we're providing those solutions. because that, again, will grow the industry. And, look, we've seen the IAB come to the market with some clear guidelines on how we should be measuring, and what are the standardization of metrics.

[00:16:17] There's got to be more of that. Then there's got to be more of that lean in from retail media networks, because we've all got to move together to build a better industry, to build a better way in which brands can use our platforms, and give them options in the way in which they're talking to consumers.

[00:16:33] And, that's the exciting piece. It's phenomenal for retail media, right? Like It's a real moment.

[00:16:39] Damian: Yeah, you're writing them on the front lines of it. one aspect of retail data is that, advertisers can connect their digital environment with the physical shopping environment. And as you mentioned, CVS Pharmacy has all of these environments, physical environments across the United States.

[00:16:59] Why does it [00:17:00] matter that you connect those up?

[00:17:01] Parbs: connect those up? because the connection of the digital and physical environments, it's crucial because consumer shops, How they want to shop, depending on that current need stay or this particular situation that they're in at any given time, right?

[00:17:17] there's, if we think about that level of integration of data around online and offline buying behaviours, like advertisers are consistently trying to understand, first of all, how do you create a seamless experience between those two environments? But then more importantly how do you influence the consumer through that journey?

[00:17:37] Like we, we talk, for a number of years within this industry we've talked about our traditional funnel approach and there's no funnel anymore. retail media has actually condensed the funnel and you're, Point of delivery of message to through to point of purchase has shortened so much.

[00:17:55] it's it's almost an in. It's there's no awareness. There's no consider. It's just go [00:18:00] straight down to the bottom of the funnel and purchase from the moment that you see an ad. And so we've got to think about, how do we continue to add value in that process right the way through the digital and physical, experiences.

[00:18:14] There are some challenges there as well, right? Like it's, when we think about showing a, an ad to a consumer in a digital environment and then whether they purchase that product in digital or they, It's, buy online, pick up in store and send it to a store or they, go into a store and purchase, we see 52 percent of our, web and app users who start their journey in the digital capacity and then finish it in a physical capacity as well within 48 hours, right?

[00:18:43] Like that's the kind of thing. Yeah, and we've got to make sure that again, like working with the brands to to really surface those kind of insights so they can then be along that journey with that consumer as well through the experience. [00:19:00] Some of the in store activations when we got around about, we've got screens within our in store environments, at the pharmacy counter, we have digital audio, we have out shelf promotions and so on.

[00:19:11] Some of those are a little bit more difficult to measure. I think one of the challenges that we will face as an industry is how do we bring a level of measurability to those components and, I, there's a lot of, different outfits that are driving that. but with that, I think personalization needs to be consistent.

[00:19:27] Showing the value of connectivity between the digital and physical environments being with that consumer across that entire journey and every single touch point will also set you apart from the rest of the industry. ongoing. this is an evolution, right? As, as we continue to

[00:19:44] Ilyse: 

[00:19:44] Damian: That's

[00:19:49] Ilyse: that in the retail media space as it stands today? And how do you think it can evolve since it's so new?

[00:19:58] Parbs: Yeah, I am passionate [00:20:00] about it, and I'm passionate about it because I've been in this industry for 25 years, and I have I think we can do better, as it relates to D and I, and As we give opportunity across all different layers of an organization, these are really important for the growth of our industry.

[00:20:26] And I'm not just talking about retail, I'm talking about the advertising industry, for us to build opportunity for more diverse voices within our business, for different ways of thinking, for the way in which we want to be change agents within the whole industry. And We've got to continue to do better.

[00:20:48] Where retail media comes into play is that as we build this industry from the bottom up, it gives us an opportunity to think about D& I a little bit differently. we're building teams that are new teams. we might [00:21:00] already have a blueprint from different organizations that we work with on what's worked or what's not worked.

[00:21:06] And as we've looked at CMX, we've built purposefully A level of diversity into our organization that gives us an understanding of not just the way in which we want to think as an organization, but it also gives us a relationship with how our consumers are. we have consumers shopping us from across the United States.

[00:21:28] They're consumers from various walks of life. And if we understand the consumer and we can share it. an understanding of who they are and live in their shoes because we have, then that gives us an ability to think a little differently about our businesses. And then how does that relate to retail media?

[00:21:47] I think we can do better. I would like us to do better. I do challenge the industry around there. but overall, I think, retail media can really pave the way for how we think about D and I initiatives and bringing more [00:22:00] diverse voices Into our industry, and we're definitely doing that in CMX.

[00:22:03] We can stand behind that.

[00:22:04] Parbs: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:22:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:22:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:22:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:22:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:22:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Mark Penn, the chairman and CEO of Stagwell Inc., reflects on his extraordinary career, driven by his passion for politics and marketing, and offers insights on why this is a good year for marketers. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Penn, the Chairman and CEO of Stagwell.

[00:00:10] Damian: Well, first, as a political pollster, who's advised names like Bill and Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair.

[00:00:20] Later, he became Chief Strategist for Microsoft, before founding Stagwell, a digital first marketing and communications group.

[00:00:28] Ilyse: Mark's political background no doubt brings a much needed perspective to marketing. He argues that in today's real time, data driven world, brands must have a constant finger on the pulse of the American consumer.

[00:00:42] Damian: We start by asking him how these two worlds, politics and marketing, have always been bound together

[00:00:48] mark, it's no secret that you've covered the waterfront from being a political strategist to a poster to businessman and author. You know, can you walk us through a little bit about how you went from polling to politics to media? [00:01:00] That's a big question, right?

[00:01:01] Yes, I'm still trying to answer that question 

[00:01:03] Mark: myself. How did I get here? Uh, you know, I kind of re strategize myself like every decade or so. And I said, well, okay, what is it that I really want to do? And, and so I, I kind of started actually out as I was going to be a lawyer. Uh, and then I detoured from law, law to polling.

[00:01:22] And then I was going to be a pollster working for the president. And I got to do that. So then I kind of detoured from there. And then at a certain point, and I love technology. So I was then kind of went to Microsoft and became chief strategy officer. And then I, I had this idea to say, why can't I take all my experiences in polling and campaigns and running bursts in Marsteller.

[00:01:45] And I ran Microsoft's advertising too. And I said, you know what? I could form a better holding company because it could be more digital first. It could be more freed from the legacy assets. It could be more innovative. And so I did exactly that. [00:02:00] 

[00:02:00] Damian: Yeah, doing a little research on your background, it seems like your curiosity seems to have served you very well throughout life.

[00:02:06] Is that part of the DNA of, of what drives you or what, what keeps, what motivates you to keep going? 

[00:02:12] Mark: Well, you have to do what you're interested in. You know, I always think, it's so funny. You know, my partner and I were going to be corporate lawyers. And, and then we decided, you know what? We like this polling thing.

[00:02:22] We have impact on campaigns and society. And we thought, oh, we're giving up this cushy life as corporate lawyers. And we, we did a lot better doing polling than we ever would have done as corporate lawyers. So, what I always tell people is, follow your passion. Don't worry so much. If you do something, do it.

[00:02:38] Really interesting. Really? Well, you'll, you'll figure out how to, you know, how to manage the, the reward side of things, and that's much better than doing something you don't really like that you somehow think is going to be rewarding. 

[00:02:51] Damian: Now, Stagwell, as you mentioned, offices, big marketing network, let's tech driven, you know, as a leader in digital, you know, uh, how have you seen the [00:03:00] two areas move together, you know, the idea of digital marketing performance and creative, how do those two things.

[00:03:07] Mark: Well, I think they have to work together. I think that to the extent that you're creating a digital experience, that is a creative activity. That, that everyone remember, those of us who were not born digital, think of how we create a TV spot first. Those who were born digital don't think in that way. They think in how they're going to create a digital experience first.

[00:03:35] Right? And, and that takes the same kind of creativity, if not more so. Right? Because TV spots eventually had like a, they had like a, they had rules. Right? And they had a boundary and they were 30 seconds. And, you know, and you can be like, it's actually more of an interesting open canvas when it comes to digital creation.

[00:03:54] Ilyse: What would you say is one thing every brand or media buyer should be [00:04:00] thinking about today? 

[00:04:01] Mark: Uh, every media buyer, I think, today is just thinking about how they get the, Find the right place for their brand.

[00:04:10] I mean, I, I think, I think it's, it's kind of the basic of who's your real target audience and, and how, how are you going to find that audience? And I think they just have to be open minded that it's, that there are so many new ways to reach an audience that they have to spread their wings a little bit.

[00:04:28] Right. I mean, I think we went from, it was just TV. to it was just TV and Google and Facebook. So now it's Google Tiktok and retail marketing and so many other things. And I think they just have to be open to experimenting to find where their target audience really is. 

[00:04:43] Ilyse: Now it's no secret that the publishing industry is under a lot of pressure today.

[00:04:48] And Stagwell recently published a study called the news advertising study with the Findings that showcase that it's safe for brands to advertise next to news, regardless [00:05:00] of the topic, and that adds next to those even like controversial topics performed just as effectively as those within more like positive news environments, maybe like sports or entertainment.

[00:05:12] Now in your op ed for the current, you wrote that brands think there is less downside in those positive environments, but the opposite is true too. There is less upside. Can you tell us what you mean and why should advertisers care about these findings? 

[00:05:27] Mark: Well, I think that I discovered, and I discovered this when I did the budgeting at Microsoft.

[00:05:32] A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. Uh, that they will be advertising in sports and they will be advertising in entertainment. And they will be blocking out news, or they will be subscribing to a service that in effect blocks them out. And what maybe started out as some good idea, you know, that your, the ad for your, for Boeing shouldn't appear next to a plane crash, really [00:06:00] somehow devolved into something affecting 25 percent of news articles.

[00:06:04] Seriously demonetizing journalism. And it's having unintended consequences far beyond that. And brand safety? Seriously? I mean, I've yet to see some brand lying in the curb because their advertisement appeared in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. It's a ludicrous notion to be blacking out legitimate journalistic publications for, quote, brand safety.

[00:06:30] Damian: In general, the business model for news journalism is sort of evolving and changing. You know, what else is new? What do you think can advertisers and publishers do to work together to make sure that journalism is thriving even as newsrooms shutter? 

[00:06:42] Mark: Well, I think that there has to be a little bit of re education here with the CMOs and the media buyers.

[00:06:50] I think they're afraid that somehow they're going to trigger some backlash against their company. Yeah, certain, certain things have [00:07:00] triggered a backlash. But to go back to, I've never known that backlash to come from advertising in one of the major publications. And, and so consequently, I think that they can reduce some of their fear levels.

[00:07:12] And then also they have to understand that news consumers, right, in about 25 percent of the country, maybe 23 percent of the country, are what I classify as news junkies, right, who, who go in and, and, And kind of get updated on the news five times a day. That is a great engaged audience. They read stuff.

[00:07:32] Okay. That means they're more likely actually to kind of absorb your advertisement than someone who doesn't read stuff. Uh, and, and so I think they really have to rethink how some of their media planning and the audiences they're targeting and, and get out there and experiment with news. Cause I, again, I, I think, I think for the social problem here is that it's demonetizing news and putting journalists out, out of work.

[00:07:57] But just be greedy. Just, just go, you know, just [00:08:00] think about your brand. I think it will benefit. 

[00:08:02] Damian: They shouldn't be on the back foot so much. Speaking of news, of course, this year is a presidential election year in the U. S. and elections all around the world. Um, what do you think are the top channels in today's media landscape for this year's U.

[00:08:13] S. presidential election? 

[00:08:15] Mark: Well, I, I, I think that's, that's kind of interesting. Look, most campaigns spend most money on TV, right? So, but as I tell commercial advertisers, you know, if you have your customers in Ohio, well, Ohio is a less of a swing state than it was, but let's say Arizona or Nevada, Virginia.

[00:08:34] Good luck. Good luck buying media, you know, in the last few months here, because it is going to be jammed because there's more money than ever in politics, right? And so then, then politics is, is, is then going to go over to, to social media. Right? And I think spend a lot of money on on social media, uh, all being right.

[00:08:55] And you know, and you're going to find just from an age cohort, you're going to find people on X or [00:09:00] older and people on Tiktok or younger. And kind of, you have to kind of understand your audience and the medium. So it's interesting. You know, I came from a lot of old school TV advertising. Uh, I've yet to see how people as effectively drive a message.

[00:09:16] Right on social media. I think they've got to do more work. As I always say, the best digital ads in either politics or commercial have yet to be invented, 

[00:09:27] Ilyse: you know, to that. effort, um, especially when connecting with, like, Gen Zers, do you think technology will play more of a role? Is that, do we see candidates still, um, sticking true to, like, social media or are there other channels you think they're playing even more in this year?

[00:09:44] Well, it's

[00:09:44] Mark: interesting that, you know, what does Trump really do? Trump does events, so his event strategy is then geared to create content that then gets distributed primarily through social media, right? And, and so it's [00:10:00] very interesting because, because it's almost, you know, we look here, you know, I'm, we're, well, we're, we're at something called Sport Beach, and so, so events are back.

[00:10:09] And events aren't a substitute for the media. They are, they generate the content that you really need. That's because people, people want content that's fresh, right? And they want to feel that they're in the moment. They don't want something that's old and that's canned. Uh, and so I think that's, that's really, really important.

[00:10:28] But we are seeing, look, we know that about 70 percent of budgets now have really gone online. And that is, that is, you know, back, when I was at Microsoft a decade ago, it was probably 2%. So that has gone beyond anybody's expectations. Of course, that was one of the reasons that I founded Stagwell because we saw that and we wanted to be ahead of that curve.

[00:10:51] And of course, that's one of the things that we, you know, work together closely with the trade desk on. 

[00:10:56] Ilyse: Totally. Um, now personal politics aside, [00:11:00] what advice would you share with Biden's team and Trump's team? Where's the gap in each of their campaigns as, as it stands? 

[00:11:07] Mark: Well, but I would really tell both of them the same thing.

[00:11:10] Uh, you know, I try to explain to people the math of swing voting, that if an election is 5 5 and it switches, one person switches, it becomes 6 4. Now, it takes two people in turnout to equal one person who switches. So, getting switchers is really the most powerful thing in politics. And getting switchers means appealing to people who don't agree with you, right?

[00:11:36] And so what I would say is get out of the politics of the base. Get into the politics of switchers. Reach out to the people who don't agree with you. Try to find compromises, uh, in policy that brings them in. And whoever does that most successfully will not only win, but we'll win in a landslide. And if alternatively they appeal only to their base, they may win.

[00:11:57] They may lose, but they will not have changed the 50, [00:12:00] 50 nature of the, of the country. 

[00:12:04] Damian: Now, You know, you're known as a sage advisor. What's the best advice you've ever received? Yeah, 

[00:12:11] Mark: well the best advice I ever received was at an elevator In which in which In which a guy told me he was a he was he was a stock analyst And he said, buy Amazon.

[00:12:33] He said, sell every other stock you have and buy Amazon because they will be the future of retailing. And this was like when Amazon was a peanut, I of course thought the guy was a nutcase.

[00:12:48] And so I did not follow that advice. Uh, I would say that, that though, seriously, the, um, You know, I've worked for a lot of incredible people and, and, and [00:13:00] I always try to pick up kind of, kind of what they do best, right. And, and, you know, I worked with president Clinton and president Clinton was just amazing at, at synthesis.

[00:13:10] You would, you would throw incredibly complex things at, at him and he would fit them all into, into pieces or, you know, or I worked, you know, with Steve Ballmer, who's a core investor. And I just thought he was like, I didn't understand how he had 110, 000 people and went home. Uh, and how his time management was so radically different than, than mine.

[00:13:31] So I always try to pick up things from whomever, whomever I worked with. Uh, and to see like, what's the special thing, some of the special things that, that really work well. Fascinating. Now Stagwell is no stranger to growth or acquisitions. And 

[00:13:47] Damian: what does the future hold for Stagwell? 

[00:13:50] Mark: Well, you know, I always explain, we started Stagwell eight years ago, you know, at zero.

[00:13:55] We're about two and a half billion in revenue now. We [00:14:00] continue to expand out, you know, globally and also globally. You know, building a series of tech, uh, of tech products. Uh, I feel that we're a teenager now, you know, we were a baby two or three years ago and, and, and we've got, we're, we're really now coming on as a challenger network, uh, and we're going to continue to challenge, but we think we have a lot of growth, a lot of growth ahead of us.

[00:14:23] Ilyse: Now there's a lot of things affecting the industry. A lot of major topics that are being discussed nonstop. What is your prediction for the end of 2020? 2024 and into 2025. 

[00:14:36] Mark: Look, I think this is going to be a good year for marketing. It's going to be 12 billion spent on politics. So that's always helpful, uh, to, to, you know, and, uh, and, you know, I think we have a, we have a good, you know, uh, We have several companies that are in the political space.

[00:14:52] Uh, I think that, that advertising is growing, uh, generally. I think 20, I think tech companies [00:15:00] have a lot of work to do in terms of the competition now that's, uh, that's occurring on who's going to really dominate in AI, if anybody, or how are people going to have different flavors of AI. So I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going on.

[00:15:14] I think 23 was a year I couldn't wait for it to finish. You know, it was not the year that we were hoping for. But 24, you know, sitting here in mid year, it's looking good.

[00:15:23] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:15:26] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:15:29] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:15:35] Damian: Cairns. And remember, 

[00:15:36] Mark: A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news.

[00:15:43] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:15:43] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:15:44] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

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Polaris’ Chief Customer Growth Officer talks with The Current Podcast about how many of the company’s customers are multicultural and have preferred style over performance.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:59] Damian: I'm [00:01:00] Damian Fowler.

[00:01:05] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

[00:01:07] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:01:09] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Pam Kermisch, the Chief Customer Growth Officer at Polaris. 

[00:01:15] Damian: Polaris was founded 70 years ago with the invention of the early snowmobile in 1954. Polaris takes its name after the North Star, and it's meant to reflect the location of the company's first headquarters in northern Minnesota. 

[00:01:34] Ilyse: These days, Polaris is the global industry leader in power sports. Offering everything from Indian motorcycles to its off road racers. And all the accessories that go with them.

[00:01:44] Damian: During the pandemic, the brands saw a surge of interest in its vehicles as people embraced outdoor activity. Although it started out as a specialized brand, it continues to build on its popularity through its marketing campaign. Think outside. 

[00:02:03] Pam: Back in 1954, two brothers and a best friend decided they way, faster to get to their location. And they literally strapped a motor to the back of a sled and created the first snowmobile. It was ingenuity at its best. 

[00:02:20] And when I think about Polaris today, We have recreational vehicles. We have motorcycles. We have off road vehicles. We have boats. We also have utility vehicles that help people do work smarter. And at the end of the day, it's really about getting people outside and helping to have a better way to do things, whether it's working smarter or on the recreational side, having the most epic experiences with your friends and family.

[00:02:47] Ilyse: Very nice. Now in 2019, the brand actually underwent a new rebranding with a new Think Outside campaign. 

[00:02:56] Ilyse: I read that there is a goal to basically grow the base [00:03:00] by 50 percent by tapping into your existing base and finding new customers as well. What was your strategy around that and how has it played out to this point?

[00:03:11] Pam: Yes. So in 2019, We really took a look at talking to our existing customers, talking to potential intenders of our brands and talking to people we thought might be interested in what we offer. And we did some great consumer research. And what we learned is at the heart of it, we tapped into what they really care about.

[00:03:35] And what we found is what our current existing owners care about. More people could care about. We just had to find the right people. We had to reach out to them. We had to show them how this could fit into their lives and introduce them to our brand. And it's really been a  huge effort the past few years. To find the right people and show them how this could fit in with what they  already do and make it better. And on top of bringing in more new customers, it's also bringing in new people that look a little different than our core customers.

[00:04:11] Damian: Very interesting, because when you think what sell in a way, kind of very specialized, I don't know whether I'd it niche. 

[00:04:22] Pam: you know, I think when you look at household penetration off road vehicles, for example, household - So you're right. It's not something where it's 70, 80, 90 percent of the market has one of these. But what I will say is if you think about some of the audiences. We do attract people love outdoor recreation. love being outside. They love adventure. They might do camping, they might do hiking, they might do fishing. We also think about the people who do property maintenance They're farmers, they're ranchers, They're hunters. So, when you think about those populations, they are much more likely to buy our products. But if you look at the penetration even within those, We don't have 80 90 percent of hunters, so there's still so much penetration opportunity within people who do the activities where it seems like they would really benefit from something that we could offer them. 

[00:05:26] Damian: Was there a moment when you realized there was the potential to expand the audience? That's so interesting to me and I wonder how you found that opportunity.

[00:05:40] Pam:  So I'm kind of a nerd, self admittedly kind of a nerd. And I really think that CRM and data and analytics played a huge role in this journey because prior to [00:06:00] having that type of capability, we actually didn't know how many customers we had. We had customers for decades, but we actually didn't know how many customers. We knew how many units we had sold, but units does not equal customers because you have people who have owned more than one over time. So going back a handful of years, we were able to Get CRM, take our data in, cleanse the data, de dupe our, people and, understand how many customers we had and set some goals and start measuring how many new customers came in each year.

[00:06:35] And when I say new customers, some were brand new to the category. Some had owned competitive vehicles before, but never bought from Polaris.

[00:06:45] Pam: some may have owned a used Polaris vehicle, but had never bought new from us. So It's not a flash in the pan sort of thing. This is a strategy that we really need to go after. And so it became very intentional to, of course, as the global leader, it's in our best interest to get existing customers and come back to buy again because we have the largest number of existing customers. But we also need to focus on bringing in new people and we've proven we can do it. So let's do it. 

[00:07:17] Ilyse: And that first party data is huge to any brand. How is Polaris is actually getting your first-party data from customers? Can you explain that shopper journey a little bit? And may how that journey may be different from a traditional auto dealer.

[00:07:31] Pam: And Absolutely. So if you buy a car. It has to be warranty registered. So that manufacturer will know that you bought a car from them. So if anything should go wrong with warranty, that they are able to contact you. Very similar, when someone buys one of our vehicles and it gets warranty registered, we receive the customer information.

[00:07:54] And we certainly can use third party data to append that, but we know who owns that vehicle. [00:08:00] We also do have people who visit our website. In our dealerships, the majority of them, we call them multi line dealerships. So, they do sell Polaris, but they also may sell Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Can Am. And so, you think of it very to being grocery store being in a cereal aisle, where you have all the competitors right there in the same you may think you're going to the cereal aisle to buy Frosted Flakes and Flip and buy multigrain cheerios. 

[00:08:32] Pam: A customer can come to our dealership thinking they're going to buy a Polaris Ranger and that salesperson can flip to a Can Am Defender. And so when you think about it, it is in our best interest with marketing to try to get that customer as committed to which brand and which product they want as early in the journey as possible to make sure that they can't get flipped at the last minute at the dealership. 

[00:08:59] Ilyse: You know, when it comes to digital marketing, because it's such a niche product, are there specific digital channels you've found to have more potential to reach the type of consumers you're trying to reach? 

[00:09:20] Pam: You know, I would say it's less about it being one particular channel because at the end of the day, our, our customers are, they're all over the place 

[00:09:31] in terms of their habits, their consumption habits, and whatnot. They're 

[00:09:34] regular people. But what's more important to us is understanding the people who buy our products. So we do have our owners. We know who our owners are. 

[00:09:44] And we can do third party data appending, we can do look alike modeling to understand. We can't afford to go after maybe everyone who loves the outdoors. That wouldn't make financial sense. We may not be able to afford to go after everyone who owns one or two or 

[00:10:00] five acres of property or more around the country or the world. But what we can do is do look alike modeling and use that data with our media partners to try to get more narrowed in on: Who are the right hunters that we should be going after? Who are the right type of landowners? And part of it is not only being able to find the right people but understanding which populations which segments came to our ones ended up buying, and using that info to continually optimize. But also, lot of really, smart things these days where using our current inventory and using that our media to be able to reach out to the right show them this sportsman that you looked at recently is available right now at this dealer down the block and trying to [00:11:00] drive urgency there or using other types of data that we might have.

[00:11:04] whether they think they're shopping or not at that moment in time. 

[00:11:08] Damian: I wonder how you're connecting this because adventure tourism is a big deal right. And that's a growig market. Is that something you're growing into? 

[00:11:18] Pam: I, I Yes. So, several years ago we started something called Polaris Adventures. So certainly places rented off road vehicles in the past, but oftentimes they were the old ones kind of broken down and it was really important to us from a brand perspective. We're talking about if you're gonna do something from a brand perspective, build your brand. We wanted to make sure people were in the current vehicles, the most modern ones and the ones that we knew were going to give them the best experience. So we created something called Polaris Adventures. And you can go online and you can find Polaris Adventures and you can go to one of 270 locations. [00:12:00] 268 of them are in the United States.

[00:12:01] One is in Mexico. One's in New Zealand. And you can rent a Polaris Side by Side Razor. You can rent a Polaris Slingshot, which is a three wheel roadster. Think of a Batmobile. It looks like a Batmobile. it rides on road. You can rent an Indian motorcycle if you ride motorcycles. And so you can do that in all of these different markets. And I'll tell you, even though I work at the company, I have used Polaris Adventures. I've ridden in the dunes in Oregon. I've ridden in the desert in Arizona and Mexico. I've ridden in the mud trails of West Virginia, and all, all kinds of other markets. In each one of those is a different experience because the terrain is very different. 

[00:12:42] Rock crawling in is completely different being in the and is completely different than being different than dunes in a 

[00:12:59] Pam: It's an [00:13:00] amazing way to people experience it. And you know what? Not all go buy one some will never buy one. Some may buy maybe at a time in life when it fits them better. And others may just put it in their Instagram feed. And guess what? I promise this. If you were to do this activity and you were to put it, in your Instagram feed, it is the best FOMO ever. All of your friends are, you know, texting. Where are you? What are you doing? and they want a piece of that. So I think it's highly relevant in today's world. And I think we're just playing a part of this growing travel market. 

[00:13:36] Ilyse: So, much fun. have fOMO right now. just even talking about and you know, it's 

[00:13:48] Ilyse: You described your family not as the stereotypical sports kind of family, and I would imagine there's a bunch of Polaris customers that wouldn't qualify as the stereotypical power sports types of people. Are there any types of segments that you wouldn't expect that are interested in power sports vehicles?[00:14:00]

[00:14:08] Pam: So it's interesting if you think about maybe what you would expect to think about from traditional power sports customers. You know, you might think older white male and historically, maybe that's how the category had been, particularly with ATVs and whatnot. Like I said, half of our customers now are younger women multicultural. So let's blow that up right now. But what I will say is going back a number of years ago, We created a product called the slingshot Polaris slingshot.

[00:14:40] And like I said, it's a three wheeled vehicle. It rides on road. it's 5. 5 inches from the ground, open air cockpit. and it's very auto like, right? So now you can actually, get one that is automatic or manual. And, When we started with this vehicle, we assumed it was gonna be about performance because that's what a lot of power sports customers like.

[00:14:59] [00:15:00] And if you look at it, it kind of looks aggressive, so it looks like it's gonna go super fast. We marketed it. We even did demos on racetracks because it was all about performance. And it was doing okay, not phenomenal. And we actually looked at the data, and the data showed we had a much higher percentage of multicultural customers who own this vehicle, and that was really not typical of the industry.

[00:15:25] So we did consumer insights research to understand what brought them to Slingshot, why did they love it, and what we found was they weren't coming in because of performance. It was the style that really appealed to them and they loved that when they drove around in this slingshot heads turned.

[00:15:42] And when we said there's something to this, let's start marketing that way. First of all, I think the brand is 40 plus percent multicultural customers today. But on top of that, the white customers that are buying this love style, [00:16:00] The personalization. They love the same what's interesting is when you go slingshot meetups, a lot local groups, clubs that have organized and they all get together. 

[00:16:10] When you at 

[00:16:13] Damian: has 

[00:16:14] Pam: diverse group of people you've ever seen. You multicultural, old, young, it might not be a group of people you ever would have imagined congregating, but they are loving each other and checking out each other's slingshots and talking about getting together and how much they love it.

[00:16:32] And it's this common community that has brought these people together. And so I think we've learned some great lessons about. Sometimes you think you know, and one of the number one rules of marketing is, you know, you don't know, don't make assumptions. You need to actually listen to customers, learn from them and be willing to adapt. And that's been an awesome learning and really opened our eyes to opportunity within power sports. 

[00:16:57] Ilyse: that's a 

[00:16:57] good 

[00:16:58] Pam: the [00:17:00] things and to these there's of that look 

[00:17:11] Damian: vehicles. And then that goes out on social 

[00:17:13] Pam: is 

[00:17:13] Damian: that a whole 

[00:17:16] Pam: know, white Absolutely. You know what? You know what? Here's what I will tell you. Going back, I joined Polaris in 2015 and we had done some research on the Indian motorcycle brand and the path to purchase and

[00:17:32] back then, the number one way that people came in on the brand was word of mouth. And that's been probably for centuries and for decades, it's word of mouth. 

[00:17:43] Pam: And in motorcycles, it might been, know, yes, your friends and family, but go to a truck stop and someone else there and you're checking out their bike you're asking they ask you how you like it. The beautiful thing today that definitely still happens a lot. But with digital[00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Ilyse: kind 

[00:18:00] Pam: learn from and share with. People they don't even know. And so you see people when they're shopping for a vehicle, they will ask, how do you like yours? What do you like? What don't you like? And it's authentic word of mouth. And so from a brand perspective, if you create something wonderful and people love it and you make them feel valued and appreciated as customers, then hopefully they're the ones out there selling for you. 

[00:18:28] Ilyse: You know, you mentioned social media, and typically, at least, the younger generation are on social media. Is it more difficult to inspire those younger generations. They're known for being tied to their technology, I know the pandemic at least many people looked to go outside more. Now that it's more safe, is it harder to inspire those generations to think outside?

[00:19:03] Pam: I don't think so. what I will say is getting outside with friends and family and sharing experiences. is something people, especially our younger people love to do. I think a lot of our younger customers will tell you that if they're new to the workforce or if they're in school, you know, they feel handcuffed to their responsibilities. 

[00:19:26] Sometimes when you get outside, you put the phone in the glove box and you go out for a ride and you just you turn the tunes on. You have a great time. You'll get back to the phone later. No question. And you're going to stop and capture a lot of content and share with your friends on on Snapchat and whatnot.

[00:19:42] But it is 100 percent about sharing experiences, and they love that. But I will tell you, going back in time, Innovation has always fueled our category. That's just the new news. People always want the newest, latest thing. And for a long time, it was power, horsepower. Is it more [00:20:00] CCs? Is it, you know, bigger, better, stronger, faster? I will tell you, technology is playing a very large role now in what people are choosing to shop for. 

[00:20:10] So, a couple proof are, we have something called Ride Command. So, I want you to think about it. If you were off roading or going on a snowmobile ride, you're not on roads. And a lot of times you lose cell service out there. One of the biggest fears people have is getting lost. You're out there in the middle of the woods and you get lost. You're out there in the middle of the desert dunes, you get lost. We have ride command technology that the maps will work even when your cell phone service doesn't work. And that's super helpful. It also has a, capability ride. So say I out with different,

[00:20:46] Ilyse: probably 

[00:20:48] Pam: we want to ride together, but I don't want to ride so close that I'm inhaling your dust or your exhaust. So we out, but you might come to a fork in the road and take a left and I go to the right. Now we lose each other. [00:21:00] That's not fun either. The ride command has a group ride function where I can see all the other razors in my group. So we can ride together. I'm doing air quotes, but we can separate. And then I still know where everyone is. So technology, it's not technology for technology's sake. It's actually making the ride experience better. And I think that is extremely relevant to our younger customers.

[00:21:29] called group go five 

[00:21:32] Ilyse: sales climb. as, as more 

[00:21:43] Pam: want to spread for sure. You know, well, at my house, you know, at least in the beginning, I was Clorox wiping the groceries. So I think we all kind of have vague memories of those days and. Life wasn't very fun because you were trapped inside unless you could go outside on a walk or do something. And we saw our [00:22:00] business really sore because on one hand, from a recreational standpoint, it was something that you could do safely outside and actually think about off road riding. You could be riding with a bunch of friends and you could each be in your own vehicle. So you were safe. You're wearing a helmet. I spent that first summer of 2020. A lot of weekends out on our boat and out there, the world felt normal. So for sure we saw sales surge. 

[00:22:27] And we were concerned, though, thinking, Okay, this is great. But when people have other options to spend their money on, are they gonna just trade in all these vehicles and flood the market? And suddenly we're not gonna have a sustainable, you know, healthy business that we've been having. It's not the case.

[00:22:47] We actually look very much at our repurchase rates, and we look at short term one year. We look at three year. We look at five year. We look at 10 year. When you look at the one and three year repurchase rates, they are [00:23:00] very healthy and the five year repurchase rate is very, very strong, which tells you that the customers we brought in in 2020, 2021, they aren't just abandoning.

[00:23:12] They actually have found something that really works for them and they're continuing to come back and buy again. 

[00:23:18] And by the way, they're going to tell their friends and family. So we believe that, It's a, good example of I always say never waste a crisis. pandemic was tough for a lot of reasons, but it certainly gave our business a boost and brought in a lot of new customers. And it seems like it's a very healthy population we in.

[00:24:36] Damian: That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. 

[00:24:42] Ilyse: The current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:24:48] Damian: And remember,

[00:24:49] Pam: find the right show them how this could fit in with what they already do and make it better.

[00:24:56] Damian: I'm Damian. And

[00:24:57] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse. And

[00:24:58] Damian: we'll see you next time. And [00:25:00] if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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